LonK, nice work on the carpet.
Have to agree with Craig about the violet cast, although it may not be so much of a cast, but rather that all of the clothing seems to be a shade of plum (violet). That color would be fine for women's clothing, but not sure if it was available in men's.
One thing that really detracts from the photo is the background. There appears to be some color banding, in a sort of rainbow effect, and in general too smooth.
A good excercise for those doing colorizing: open a color image. Duplicate the image and close the original. Now desaturate your duplicate, and colorize it. When you've finished, bring up the original, and compare. You'll quickly see what needs to be modified in your coloring technique.
I'm almost afraid to post my two cents worth on the colorizations because the detail work is very good. The color of the boy's shirt is pretty much spot on. I'm guessing as a fiber artist that the shirt (based on what I can see of the weave) is linen. Unless linen is bleached, the color is usually blond, just like the picture. Good job.
On the woman's dress in the second colorization...Dyes at the time this picture was taken would not be those colors of purple; and if purple at all would be more muted and/or earthy, such as produced by logwood. Aniline dyes (coal tar) were not invented until 1856 by an English chemist named William Perkin, who created a color he named mauve. Her dress is most likely a subdued black, dark brown, or dark blue. But then again, I might be wrong. Mauve was a very popular color once it caught on with the general populace.
I know. I know. Too much information and none of it very relevant.
Keep up the good work.
I just get this pic of my wife's parents, very damaged.
I'll clean all and make a new pic, but just for fun, I wish to see if someone can guide me with the colors.
I was thinking on doing it b/w, but now that I see your job, I'll try to colorize like you guys.
i looked at your work at little closer today. it really is an excellent job. but i thought i'd try and put my money where my eye is and try some of the things i mentioned regarding your work.
it didnt take long to realize that the image itself has some problems, the main being that it's a bit too small for great detail work. the reason i say this is that there are a number of 'jaggies' in the various lines within the image. this is often due to not having enough pixels to work with and the lines just dont anti-alias and dither very well. a smoothing/softening/blurring brush can help there. so that was one of the first things i did. i also used the same brush to blend the gentleman's beard into his skin a bit and the same on his head hair along with a few other places. this reduces the stark contrast down a bit.
i also desaturated her blouse and skirt quite a bit; not fully, but mostly. this was done with a selection and the hue/saturation filter.
i also added a bit of texture back into the skirt and the man's suit. this was done with a selection and 'add noise' filter.
i added a bit more shading into the woman's face for more contrast, but reduced the shading in the man's face a bit. i wanted more consistency between all the facial shadings across the boards. they just didnt seem to match up, one to the other. i somewhat used the boy's shading as a reference.
i also clone fixed one small area in the carpet where it was blurred.
i also sharpened all the eyes just a bit.
i also lightened the man's suit and the woman's skirt a bit and just a tiny bit of the boy's where it was the darkest. this seemed to be more in line with the original lighting.
i did leave just a tiny bit of violet in the woman's clothing. i did this on purpose as blacks tended to never be true blacks with dyes in clothing. they tended to be very dark purples, but this may not be correct in this case. so, i just guessed.
the work is 98% yours and again, i think it's an excellent job. when you get down to this point you can see from the various comments others have made that a lot of opinion starts entering in, including mine. you can see in the forums with the various challenges and contests that if 16 folks work on the same image, there will always be differences. so, always bear that in mind, including my opinions and choices here.
and also bear in mind that we here in this forum tend to be perfectionists, or at least strive for that and are generally far more observant and therefore critical, than any client. had you obtained the original from my mother, for example, and then shown her the before and after, she would have gone, "Wow!" and nothing more so, frankly, i've loved your pieces and do hope you continue. you've got the knack.
Oh Ye Photo Geniuses
I've been on here for some time and the more I watch the more discouraged I become. Mind you that doesn't mean that I'm going to stop trying but everytime I see your pictures come out so well, and you talk about this techique or use of that tool, I think that I may never come to a place of excellence. (Challenge 81 was one of my best works) Still there are layers and masks, filters and actions.... so much it's mind boggling. Isn't there one very good place of information to start as a beginner, in language that can be understoond?
I am so glad you posted what you have. I feel the same way, and have for a long time now!! I want to say that... (and this is not just a kiss up) .. Except for one instance I have been helped by the nicest people on any forum I have been a part of. People are so willing to help and do all they can to do so. The problem for me and I bet a lot of other newbies who come here seeking help is not really understanding a lot of the functions in photoshop they offer as solutions to completeing the work, where they are, and how they may be applied to certain works we wish to do in photoshop.
This place amazes me, the work being done amazes me. I do not think anyone will disagree with me that Flora is one of the most talented users of photoshop and does some pretty amazing restores of old pictures. Not to mention her wonderful personality and her willingness to help when no one else was able to post a reply to me ..there she was with one!! I see plenty of talented people here..Vicki , PhilBach, Ro , Ken, Danny, Cassidy just to name a few. Please forgive me I can not remember all the names as I post but there are plenty more. Not to forget my friend chrishoggy whom I have pm'ed on several occassions always receiving a kind and informative reply.
I so want to learn to do as good as the fokes here. You might say..well go find tutorials ..read ..read read..Well that does not always work for me..I am a hands on learner and then need to pose questions if stuck. And why would I want o travel to other sites when this one is inhabited by so many incrediable talented people??
I have asked before for a real beginners forum to open up for people like KlassyLady and myself whom want to learn here... from the best... Make it a starting place for new people to come and get a good footing and then be able to move on to the other forums and work out of them!! How can someone work on something which has posted ..add a adjustment level ..when we do not even know where to find it or understand it if we do know where it is!! I think I have stayed because I alway hope something like this might open and I want to be the first person in line to be there. Could this possibly happen?
I bet this will open a big discussion both pro and con ..but I finally got the nerve to speak up about what I feel everytime I come here..admiration but mostly FRUSTRATION ..at not being able to do what people post to do to achieve the results I want!! Mind you I am not an idiot and have some knowledge of photoshop and can do some things but others I am unfamiliar with and can not!!
I do not know if this makes sense to anyone but me..but I did have to post what has been in my mind and heart for a long time now!! Thanks for your TENDER responses in whatever you are feeling about my words!!
Most of all Thanks KlassyLady for having the courage to share your frustrations as it gave me the courage to do the same!! Neb
More great comments and observations, folks. It's very much appreciated.
Kraellin: You can certainly be as nit-picky as you want. You do make some valid observations -- some things I'd never even considered. I'll gladly accept your grade of A-. After all, I'm just a hack.
Vikki: That is excellent advice for budding colorists -- desaturating an existing color photo, then re-color it. I had thought about that, but frankly, have never actually done it. Might make a good thread, eh?
Janet Petty: Your knowledge of fabrics must be a great asset. I started this thread to get a cursory knowledge of such things. I've learned a lot, but still am trying to collect more visual resources for this type of thing.
studioj: How about doing your restoration on that photo of your wife's parents, then bringing the image back for colorization discussion? I'm thinking a date would be most helpful.
Kraellin: Yeah! Put up or shut up! (Just kidding) I like what you did with the old man's face/beard/hair. That does look more natural. The rest of your tweaks I could take or leave. I have no problem with any critique. Generally, if someone offers, I can differentiate between genuinely useful advice and subjective opinion. Also, many aspects of this discussion can be attributed to minor differences in equipment and calibration. I often check my stuff on many different systems and the display can be quite different, especially when very subtle colors are being compared. I use a dual monitor system (one LCD and one CRT). No matter how hard I try to calibrate and match them, there's always a slight difference. It's just a fact of life.
klassylady25: NO, No, no. Don't be discouraged. Reread the last paragraph of Kraellin's post. Know that some of the pros here can be quite brutal. I don't think they mean to denegrate anyone's efforts or be patronizing. From what I've experienced overall, they'll respond at a level commensurate with how they perceive your skill level. Jump in head first. Learn as much as you can from their experience.
I'm on to my next challenge. "I'll be back..."
Nebgranny: Looks like our posts were near the same time, so another response.
I can't disagree with anything you said. What I find most frustrating is that I don't have or use the "Cadillac of editors", i.e. Photoshop. Indeed, there are many editors represented in these forums. My editor of choice is Ulead's PhotoImpact right now. It is very capable (as I hope I've shown), but the terminology is somewhat different from PS and it seems not be one of the more prevalent tools. I've used it for about 4 years now and I'm very comfortable with it. In addition, being a disabled retiry, living on Social Security, I'm not in a position to afford PS. And I'm interested more these days in learning and doing the tasks rather than spending my precious time on learning the idiosyncracies of another editor. I mean I really don't know what an adjustment layer is either. Translating my desires and the responses is a major stumbling block, but I try very hard to extrapolate any information offered.
I'd definitely vote for a "beginner's forum". But would it become somewhat of the blind leading the blind? For some reason I don't think the more knowledgable/experienced folks would spend much time there. Teaching is difficult, especially in a virtual community where there are no one-on-one relationships; where experience is unknown; where tool availability is unknown; where "show me" is a bit cumbersome.
It is definitely a conumdrum for those just getting their feet wet in such a diverse vocation, especially if they want to get on the fast track. I'm looking forward to what other have to say about the issue.
you've taken this in exactly the spirit it was intended and i appreciate that. that we differ on some points is no surprise... apples and oranges; they're both good. if i've helped in some way, then good.
as to the subject of teaching and learning, the biggest barrier i have is i dont speak 'photoshop'. i speak paint shop pro and even there, not always well. some things just dont translate from ps to psp and vice versa. that you are working in something else, photoimpact and others are working in yet something else, like lkroll working in the Gimp, it's very easy to get confused very quickly.
some things do translate across some of the programs and maybe even a few across all of them. 'heal' in photoshop would seem to be a very similar tool to 'makeover' in psp. but these tend to be the exception and not the rule. when i first started studying here at retouch, i would try to translate these things from ps into psp. but it didnt take too long that i finally had to give this up. it was just too frustrating and often not even possible. i dont have photoshop currently so trying to learn photoshop without owning photoshop would be like trying to learn and experience flight without an airplane, and in fact, without even having the full manual, or having the manual in a different language and no translation key. this makes learning from someone like Flora, whom i also agree is one of the best, if not THE best around here, very difficult.
it's also a bit of a truism that, just because you're a good retoucher, doesnt mean you're a good teacher. tutorials are like technical writing. there is a precise science to this which is often missed by one who already knows how to do the thing. computer sotware writers tend to be the worst computer software documentors. they write code. that's their hat. but in trying to explain to someone else who doesnt know code, they tend to forget that others dont know code. so, there is a tendency to write what you know, not to write what others dont know. it takes a special awareness and talent to write something you know so that others that dont know can understand it. often, the writer just writes and leaves picking up the understanding of the words to the reader. but, in technical writing, often the reader doesnt know the words. that's the biggest stumbling block.
ultimately, it's the reader's responsibility to learn those words. the technical writer may feel like all he's addressing is his peers, others who would already be familiar with the words. or, he may have the purpose of writing to those who are unfamiliar as well. so, it's often a matter of purpose on the part of the writer as to whom he targets as his audience. an easy example of this is, if i were teaching a class to beginning photoshop students, i would not be concentrating on technique or style; i would be concentrating on tools and terminology, how they work, what they can do, and what does this or that word mean. to more advanced students, i would be concentrating more on techniques, style, the mixing of elements and so on. i would already expect them to know the tools and terms.
here on this site, we have a mix. not only is there a mix of programs being used, but a mix of student levels and teaching levels. so, it's sort of like the old schools where all the grades were in a single classroom and the students in the higher grades were expected to help the younger ones.
there is also a sort of lovable disorder here on retouch. it's somewhat like an old bookstore where the stocking of the shelves doesnt occur quite often enough and things are hither and yon. the poor old store owner cant quite keep up with keeping the A's in the A section or from ordering the same title 15 times when he's not even sold the first five yet. and here, i'm referring to the fact that we get new folks coming in all the time and asking the same old questions that have been answered 20 times, often in the same forum, already. i've seen this a fair amount recently. no one really wants to say, 'USE THE SEARCH FEATURE, you newbie!'... or maybe they do, but are too polite to do so
and this is NO reproach on Doug or on any of the moderators. i love this site. i've also worked as a moderator before on other sites. keeping any sort of order and removal of redundancy is a monumental task. keeping newbies from being newbies is also a huge task. of course they shld use the search function. telling 20 new folks about Neat Image does get tedious, but so does telling them to use the search feature. and the forum stucture itself here on retouch tends to be a bit odd. there are still sections of forums i've not perused yet... i think i've no doubt you could double the number of moderators here and still not get completely organized. and again, this is no dig on retouchpro. it's just growing, understaffed and underpaid.
i do think it would be a good idea to have a 'new person's forum' area. i also think there shld be an area for those 'just passing through and i wanted just this one help on this one photo, thank you very much' type area. and i also have thought several times of approaching doug and suggesting a 'pay for' area. this latter would be where folks could come in, drop off their photo, tell what it is they needed and wanted, and let the 'students' here work on it. retouch would collect a fee and the 'student' would collect a portion as well. everybody wins. you can liken this to a sort of apprentice system. my folks used to take us to the dental school at the university of michigan where interning dentists would do the work under the supervision of the pros. the fees were MUCH less than a normal dentist. the students got practical experiece and the patients got a much lower bill. retouch could do the same thing.
and carrying that even further, what about teaching? could retouch offer professional courses for a fee? or, how about 'sister sites' ? sister sites are those that are more of less sponsored or sanctioned by a parent site. so, has anyone approached doug and said, 'hey, i'd like to set up a professional teaching site, but i'd like it to be affliliated or sanctioned by, retouchpro' ? or, from the student's side of things, has anyone asked any of the 'Pro's here to tutor them for a fee?
the potentials here are really quite large. so, what have you volunteered for lately? where did you want to put your time and money and products and services in order to help this site? tricky, isnt it
To address the "frustration" aspect of following techniques.......I've seen many tutorials and instructions for different techniques that are quite convoluted, and often incorrect. It's no wonder there's frustration and confusion. I recommend getting Katrin Eismann's books, and working through her tutorials. You'll find almost everything you need to know. Once you've mastered ALL of her tutorials, you'll find you may not need the others, but if you do want to try them, you'll be better equiped.
Well, I had to color this image, to see what it was that was bothering me about the coloring. What I think is, there is too much NeatImage.
I've used it on this version, but not as heavily, and not with the sharpening within NeatImage.
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