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Pro Photoshop 5

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Old 02-02-2007, 07:11 PM
imann08 imann08 is offline
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Location: Thousand Oaks, Ca.
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Re: Pro Photoshop 5

Originally Posted by CJ Swartz
No rules against talking about knowledge here! I think you're just ahead of a lot of us! I know we have a few folks here who really understand Photoshop, and they post an occasional explanation as to WHY some technique will get us the effect we are looking for, but a lot of the work/play that goes on here is based on just learning some techniques that work without having to understand the WHY. I have learned from Dan Margulies' work posted on the internet, and I've searched for his explanations on subjects over the years. I'm not sure why I haven't bought his latest books (the LAB book was discussed a bit here last year), but I imagine it's a combination of laziness and worry that I just won't "get it".

When the LAB discussion came up, I found that the forum had chapter summaries written up by members and discussion threads for the book, and I checked now to see that they are doing the same for this book also -- they have summaries for the first 7 chapters already linked.

I'm going to read thru those posts and then decide if I can successfully understand his book enough to buy it.
I think one of the reasons that it is less discussed here is that this is more a forum for fixing damage as opposed to color correction. Many of the photos are B/W.

As far as you getting the books, I think you should. They are difficult for sure but they aren't impossible. I have to read things many times to get them but other things come fairly easily. Understanding why things work helps me very much. Simply knowing the steps to something doesn't do much for you in the long run I think.

I have been on DGrin quite a bit. I have actually posted in a few of those chapter reviews that they have done. I just like this site as well and was hoping that people would be talking about here as well.

You should get the books though. Especially the LAB book. LAB is very good for images suffering from severe colorcast. With the other book, it goes over all the colorspaces which is good. Each one gives you options that the others just don't have. I know it makes me feel more comfortable once I learn it.

Oh, and everyone has trouble with these books somewhere or another so if you do then you will be like everyone else.
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:25 PM
imann08 imann08 is offline
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Re: Pro Photoshop 5

In response to Art, you could have said the same thing as that last post did with the word because. As Margulis states, no one who disagrees with him can come up with examples that prove their point.

I noticed that you used a quote from someone using the difference between CRTs and LCDs as the reason why sRGB doesn't work anymore. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why sRGB is good has nothing to do with a monitor. It has to do with the conversion from RGB to CMYK. You could have a monitor that looked like it was in the exclusion blending mode and it wouldn't matter.

Also, it should be recognized that he does not think that sRGB is the best profile to use. He simply says that it is probably the best among the ones you get with PS. If you fall short in the gamut you can make it up once you get to CMYK. If you start with a larger gamut in RGB, then that is not an option. PS does it for you and it doesn't always do it right. He, unlike others, gives examples of this in his book.
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Old 02-03-2007, 12:09 AM
JettyJ JettyJ is offline
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Location: Bay Area, CA
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Re: Pro Photoshop 5

First off, the Pro Photoshop book is geared towards color correction and not color management. There is overlap, of course, but they are two distinct things. Also, he is not touting sRGB as the right colorspace for everyone to be using, he just points out when it might be the best of some bad choices. Color management as a whole is not an exact science and there are so many different inputs, outputs and translations that there is bound to be controversy. Not everybody agrees with Andrew Rodney either. Besides, regardless of colorspace, a thorough understanding of channel structure and curve editing (which are main points of the book) are powerful tools to help get your images to where you want them to be. I couldn't care less about his artistic taste or talent - it's of no importance within the context of the book.
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Old 02-03-2007, 12:36 PM
mdavis mdavis is offline
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Location: Missouri
Posts: 39
Re: Pro Photoshop 5

I have little respect for those who refuse to read opinions on both sides of an argument. Dan Margulis understands perhaps better than anyone how to use color values in RGB, CMYK, LAB to evaluate accuracy of a given color. His background is mired in 8-bit and pre-press work and he is a bit reluctant to adapt the inherent advantages that others claim exist in the 16-bit and large colorspace world. Having said that, no one can deny that very very few images in nature (outside of garishly colored dyes, fluorescents, etc.) will exceed sRGB colorspaces. He also I feel, correctly and repeatedly requests real world photos that prove that 16-bit is visible superior to 8-bit when making ordinary editing moves in Photoshop. Few of his detractors have ever been able to supply such evidence.

Andrew Rodney sells books on Color Management, not color correction. He has a vested interest in his chosen field of expertise which is explaining monitor calibration and all the mathematical, theoretical advantages of big colorspaces, big bit depths and big ticket toys. One can learn from both of these guys. Rodney corrects color by having a "perfectly calibrated" monitor and relies on visual accuracy of an "eyeballed" image being correctly interpreted by the printer. Margulis, on the other hand, can teach a color-blind person using a black & white monitor to turn out very fine color balanced work by knowing reasonable channel values for known surfaces.

Both men have their points. But if you really want to dig deeply into really knowing how to handle channel blending, masking, calculations, apply image, blend-if sliders, false profiles and a raft of professional color correction techniques that have long since passed the rest of the world by, then read Dan's "Professional Photoshop 5th Ed.". Oh, yeah, and Rodney's book is a good read as well. You ought to know both, not pitch your tent in one camp.
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Old 02-04-2007, 04:38 PM
edgework edgework is offline
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Re: Pro Photoshop 5

Dan's actually moderated his opinion of the Color Management industry in recent years; I don't believe he still consideres the whole lot to be a bunch of snake oil salesmen. Just some of them.

I have no qualms about voicing my enthusiastic endorsement of Dan's work. He is rightly placed among the top eschelon of those who have invented the modern digital color/prepress workflow and his influence is so pervasive that it now extends to 2nd and 3rd generation color gurus who might not even know a lot about him or his writing.

I've been in prepress since the early 90s, and I've worked in places that claimed to have top-down color management and really made an effort to do just that, places who thought that's what they were doing but didn't have a clue and places that could have cared less. In all versions, the bottom line is this: the correct color is whatever contract proof the client signs off on. In a shop with consistent color management, at least when the jobs were off, they were all off the same degree.

The best color management system has always been a sharp pair of eyes and a good relationship with a printer you trust. Workflows that no longer involve CMYK still come down to the same thing: someone has to be satisfied, and the files will be tweaked until they are.

The strength of Dan's approach is that, regardless of what the profiles are showing you on your monitor, the tweaking will be necessary, and it will always involve the same principles. Those are the things he teaches you.
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