Skin texture

[superfrasky]

Greetings to all
Last I see and I read much in this forum on the treatment of the skin adjustment. Concretely, some time ago I read something I believe that it was of ByRo (sorry if I am not in the certain thing) on a technique of skin adjustment. After being in contact with important retouchers of cosmetics and beauty, all reached the same. YOU NEVER USE THE GAUSSIAN BLUR LIKE PART OF A PROCESS OF SKIN ADJUSTMENT. With a Gaussian, always we will lose quality of the skin texture. The saying, the great retouchers of cosmetics and beauty never use the Gaussian blur. If somebody wants a professional use to always have present this. Greetings to all

[Doug Nelson]

What would you recommend instead?

[byRo]

Greetings superfrasky

I'm not too sure what you are asking, or what you are stating - but I'll take the opportunity to straighten a few things out:

• I think you are referring to my quick deGrunge technique;
• I have never defended the technique as a full professional resource. I have always said that it's a way to get a good result very quickly. Which, except for the highest of high-enders will usually suffice;
• The technique may seem to involve blurring but, in fact, the details (which would be eliminated with blurring) are all preserved. What is eliminated is a band of frequencies - between the high-pass and low-pass (blur)- that usually correspond to the "grunge" in the skin;
• This is not a one-stop fix-everything technique, just another tool in the tool-box.

Hope that clears things up.

Rô

[saby]

Otherwise the process depends on original, i think. I use different method for dng, and 4x5' slide on coolly used gausian blur, You can keep every detail.

saby

[TheVeed]

byro is totally right. The quick de-grunge technique is definitely not something you would use in high-end retouching, but for home/fun stuff, it's a totally acceptable form of cleaning up skin. It's also good to read through it and understand how it works, and why. There are certain techniques in his tutorial that we'll sometimes do to sharpen/'blur' just a tiny tiny bit.

[NancyJ]

with a little modification the degrunge trick is perfectly serviceable in commercial work - albeit not real high-end poster campaigns but for your standard magazine shot - unless its a full page extreme close-up - then d&b pixel perfect correction are way too expensive and time consuming.
Done well the results are almost identical at that sort of quality level, why pay for a few hours work when you can get essentially the same look (remember, your general consumer is also not a professional retoucher - they dont have the same eye we do) in minutes. It just wouldnt make financial sense

[Ant]

Originally Posted by NancyJ

with a little modification the degrunge trick is perfectly serviceable in commercial work - albeit not real high-end poster campaigns but for your standard magazine shot - unless its a full page extreme close-up - then d&b pixel perfect correction are way too expensive and time consuming.
Done well the results are almost identical at that sort of quality level, why pay for a few hours work when you can get essentially the same look (remember, your general consumer is also not a professional retoucher - they dont have the same eye we do) in minutes. It just wouldnt make financial sense

for the web or retail maybe, but otherwise I whole heartedly disagree. the degrunge is not viable for a quality image. Perhaps it may work on a garbage file, but from a professional standpoint it is not viable. No offense to byRo, but apply that to a quality file that is over 30 mb and no matter the modification, it's not viable.

[NancyJ]

For a high profile ad campaign a few thousand dollars on a single image wont even get a reaction but for your every day magazine picture that would just not be feasible.
Your average lads mag still uses blur + add noise in a lot of the pics - its not like the readership is looking at skin texture so for them this technique would be a step up.

[Ant]

Originally Posted by NancyJ

For a high profile ad campaign a few thousand dollars on a single image wont even get a reaction but for your every day magazine picture that would just not be feasible.
Your average lads mag still uses blur + add noise in a lot of the pics - its not like the readership is looking at skin texture so for them this technique would be a step up.

Yes, the average lads mag - FHM, Maxim, Playboy even (but they are better than ever). But by saying magazine as a blanket statement you are leaving out Vogue, Allure, Harpers Bazaar, V, etc. Ain't no blur nor degrunge. By magazine I mean a magazine of merit. Just thought the clarification needed to be made.

Everyday magazine pictures, even those thrown in the trash after a week do not utilize retouching that involves degrunge or other shortcuts. I've spent as much as a week on a Harpers story personally. Even Italian Glamour which is a very small format mag and let's face it, isn't the most high brow magazine pays up to $700 an image for retouching (rush, but still). The photographers only get $150 a spread...

[NancyJ]

Its no more of a blanket statement than saying professionals dont use blur or even that this degrunge trick isnt professionally viable - professional just means you get paid for it.
For example, Greg Apodaca posts on his site about skin smoothing
"It involves cloning at low opacities to a new layer, then using blurred noise on the layer to match the surrounding areas. Duplicating the layer, running a median filter and setting the layer to 50%, can be substituted for the cloning."
I've also seen, though I cant find it now a tutorial, using one of his images - though I cant say for sure it was his technique that used surface blur on the underlying skin then a high pass filter to bring out the desired skin texture. While I'm not a fan of his work, there is no denying he is a professional retoucher.

Business is business, why pay $700 for something you can get for $200? The client cares about the result, not the technique used to get it. Like any technique, it takes skill, experience and a good eye to get right, but if you're really good at it, the end result can be as good as d&B - Just this technique alone wont give you perfect skin, theres still work needed before and after but it is a big time saver.

I think particularly in the amateur and semi-pro circles theres too much focus on texture, to the point of adding it in where it wasnt. In a 3/4 length shot or even a low res head and shoulders - unless the model has pores the size of craters - you're just not going to see them. Theres a difference between preserving texture and obsessing so much that you're putting it where there shouldnt be much.

[Ant]

nevermind. point is, a shortcut is a shortcut and it shows. No one in New York is getting paid good money to use a shortcut. Do whatever you want and can get away with. You aren't going to make a good living pushing buttons and that is what everyone should remember.

I don't want to argue texture or not, nor technique. It's the final product that counts.

You speak as if you have no experience with high quality imagery. Perhaps that is where we are differing.

I had no idea who Greg Apodaca was until I googled him. Guy is a douche of the highest order and for you to even mention him in this discussion is pointless but very telling. Some of the worst looking stuff I've seen. Simply horrid. I don't know who pays him, but it would be funny for him to come work here. He even has a .mac homemade website....

retouchpro kills me.

[byRo]

Just thought I'd point out.....

Originally Posted by NancyJ

..... his technique that used surface blur on the underlying skin then a high pass filter to bring out the desired skin texture.

.. is pretty much equivalent to deGrunge. If carefully done it can give better results because you don't have to worry about getting too close to the edges.

[KR1156]

i used to cheat skin....then basically had the hi-end guy who took me under his wing slap all that nonsense out of me, but more importantly, going beyond skinwork, it really helped me develop my eye.

d&b is only way i go, no matter what the project...and if it's a low paid editorial, still do d&b. no matter what the deal, i do it the right way 1st time around.

[NancyJ]

Originally Posted by Ant

I don't know who pays him, but it would be funny for him to come work here. He even has a .mac homemade website....

...maybe thats because he works for Apple Computer as a Senior Print Production Designer

You seem to be completely missing the point - the point being, regardless of what you think of his work he is a PROFESSIONAL in the industry, so to say that professionals dont use these techniques is clearly false.

But lets be realistic here ant, you're all mouth and no trousers, you talk big and rubbish everyone's work - but you've not the balls to show any of your own work, or even prove that you're not just a pretentious forum troll. If you really feel the way you post, why bother coming here at all? You're completely closed minded and have no desire to contribute to the learning environment of this forum. You have nothing to offer and you clearly feel you have nothing to learn so whats the point?

I have evidence to backup my arguments, where's yours? Sweeping statements without any citation or even annecdotal evidence dont equal truth.
This technique is shunned by ignorant industry snobs who see the word blur and turn up their noses, without considering the fact that a) the blur isnt applied to the skin at all, and b) the technique is founded on solid principles of image theory.
The attached image took around 5 minutes - and would take that amount of time regardless of the size of image. Its far from perfect/finished but its a lot closer than it was 5 minutes before I started.
Blur is just another tool, its not evil or dirty or forbidden.
If you work exclusively in very high end ad campaigns then your clients can afford to have you fix every single pixel by hand but thats not the 'norm'.

You would be hard pressed to find this sort of snobbery in other industries - my mum works in cosmetic research - I can just imagine her telling her clients that she *could* run all their results through the stats package on her computer but instead she's going to do it all by hand and bill by the hour. I can really see them queueing up for that one.

[Ant]

BIG DEAL HE WORKS FOR MAC. He also doesn't do retouching there. Because some moron gets paid to retouch and uses blur means what anyway, that it's viable? NO.

Point is is that you don't get it that you are arguing a ridiculous thing.

Your example image LOOKS BLURRED. It's glowing!It looks bad. PERIOD. Also, it's a tiny web jpg.

All mouth and no trousers? One, I give valid advice here and never troll. I have never called something a piece of shit that did not deserve that name. Do a search for 'find all posts by this user' before you slam me in a public forum with untruths. If it's not put in a way that is polite enough for you then gfy or get over it. I could care.

Two, you want me to put up examples for YOU or others here to critique? Like I said in another thread, it would be much like asking 4 year olds to a wine tasting. I have been a high end retoucher for over 8 years, 5 and a half in NYC. I put in 2250-3500 hours a year doing this, mostly on ads. Also, you want me to participate in the retouching or manipulation of tiny, low quality jpgs here? My time is very expensive and I'm a busy individual. What do you do for a living, where do you live?

My evidence? High end professional job experience in the retouching capital of the world, education, peers and industry standards. Yours? Katrin Eisman, Greg Apodaca and other hacks and their websites and books for people just like you? Those that will never make a decent living manipulating photos - Doodlers.

LISTEN TO YOURSELF. YOU ARE ADVOCATING SHORTCUTS/BUTTON PUSHING WHEN IT COMES TO RETOUCHING. YOU HAVE NO LEGS TO STAND ON AND SEEM TO BE ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING.

What I'm really saying is that you should stop giving advice. I'm most adverse to the inanity here. The poor advice, the glad handing, the ATROCIOUS examples... the list doesn't stop.

Why don't you start a Poll or something as to the validity of my critiques. See if others want me here and keep your doodling to yourself as well as your poor technique, advice and taste.