Master Retoucher

[skydog]

Looking at two recent threads:

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/cla...on-junior.html
This is an old thread that has recently surfaced, but it was from Dexter looking for a junior retoucher. Looking at the qualifications he was seeking he was looking for someone "skilled" with skin, hair and color. He later went on and said he had not only hired the junior position, but also hired someone for a "senior position" - I'd like to know the expectation of this position. I then went and looked at his web site: www.dexterquinto.com. Wow! I really like the bright colors and crispness of detail of many of the pictures. To me the pictures "poped". I'm sure it is a combination of the photographer, camera, lights, and photoshop. How much photoshop and what exactly did the junior and senior retoucher above do to enhance these photos?

Then I look at superkoax's discussion on Dave Hill:
http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/pho...-all-help.html
Gerry is asking for insight as how to achieve this technique. If you look at many of his previous posts he as also asked this of other photographers/retouchers who are often admired/discussed on this site.

So here's my question. Where are the skills of both the junior retoucher and the senior retoucher learned? Practice sure, but there are basics and techniques that are learned? Surely they haven't just read posts on forum like retouch pro.

I asked this question sometime ago and really didn't get answer. What is being learned today in fine art schools and universities. Are some of these artists, photographers and techniques studied?

For those who consider themselves a senior retoucher that would be hired by a Dexter or a Fiscus, where did you learn your skill/techique other than practice?

It's like golf, you've got to learn all the basics and tips of a pro and then practice. Practicing poor technique just give consistently poor results.

[TheVeed]

Work your way up, perhaps? That's what I did.

[skydog]

Veed..as you said in one of your recent posts regarding liquifying mask: " can you be more specific"? "Work your way" up is not very informative. From your previous posts, you say you are working in NYC as a retoucher. What did you learn and how did you learn it before you got there and what are you learning now? Do you have "in house training"? Are you learning tips from other retouchers? What is different from the training and information you are learning "in house" different from what one would learn or have access to not working for an agency? Please provide some specifics.

[skydog]

I've been thinking about this subject a lot this morning (dangerous).

Veed (correct me if I am wrong). For you and other retouchers working for agencies, I would think that you signed a secrecy agreement upon being hired. All knowledge, training, discovery and creativity that you obtained or learned within the agency is propriatery. To be competitive you need to provide the "look" that will sell and you need to do it fast. So work flow is also important and propriatery. I am sure you and others don't want your services outsourced.

If this is true, let me rephrase what I am seeking. Where does one go to learn to be the best qualified person for the junior retouching job? Let's be specific. I'm not looking for the practice or work your way up answer.

If you were developing a training program, what would it include? What demonstrated skills would you be seeking? If the person had a gap in this skill where would you tell them to go to learn it? What tools would be necessary or helpful (computer, photoshop, wacom, etc...)? If I was the Dean of a FineArts college offering Retouching as a curriculum, I would surely find out from the experts of the field what training would need to be provided.

[TheVeed]

You are asking for an essay, skydog.

It works differently for everyone. For me, I became very good at Photoshop (not just in retouching, but in all areas, namely comic-book coloring for me) and demonstrated a wide knowledge of it in my first portfolio. If your goal is to work for a retouching studio/agency, then they will take the time to teach you if you can show that you know Photoshop very well. If they see potential, they will invest in you.

[superkoax]

the veed...wow! thanks! The investment thing meant sense to me...I've been really thinking about this for along time...so it does pay out to send out portfolios or links to your portfolio site?

Can you be our information center in this post? Caus eI have a lot of maybe dumb questions that needs to answered!

Gerry

[ftp-Jeff]

WooHoo! I would not hire anyone without knowledge of photography. To be honest, I will not hire many people that have not had any background in the traditional methods of retouching and photocomping. Sounds drastic? Yeah, perhaps, but I have never picked a wrong un!
Also a full knowledge of colour theory and lighting.

I often get complaints from some retouchers out there, because I will not give them any of my overspill work. They get very uppety, when I show them why.

Sorry went off on one there... I learned my skills...

Started as a dupe trannie colour corrector, and also trannie cut and butt, and strip ins. Working for a company called Creative Colour, back in 1973.

Then went to a Company called Colour processing labs, here I learned colour theory, also how to do real nice hand C type prints. Then 3 years at College training as a photographer.

Then went to Combined Graphic services.... Still doing traditional retouching as well as photocomposition.

Few jobs in between, then started at Colour Unlimited... Photocomposition and traditional retouching.

I was then headhunted and worked in NY for a year teaching a few Americans our way.

Back to the UK, and started my own company called First base. In 1989 I started looking at Digital retouching. 1990 I was in charge of one of the first digital retouching companies in London.. KIT COST? £350,000!! That had 1.3 gig of hard drive, extra 1.3 cost £15,000!

In 1995 teamed up with a photographer and started RGB Ltd, in south London, had some great fun there, we really got some great work done between us!

2000 Joined FTP Creative as a partner, still there, and we still look back at our past with great fondness.

That is how I got to where I am today. What is next?

Moving to Canada, doing a little more retouching, but going back into airbrushing, so will eventually give up retouching and photography....

[matthiasab]

This a good thread for starting retouchers, as I was in the same boat when I started. Retouching is such a catch-22 to get started in because it's so competetive, and most retouchers (unfortunately) don't want to share their secrets/techniques. Most agencies and studios want you to have retouching experience, but how does one gain it if no one is willing to offer it? I think the Veed had it right when he said sometimes a company will take a chance and invest in you. Once you're in, that's where you learn the professional workflows, build your book, and finally gain the experience you need to start your retouching career.

For me, I was always interested in photography, and especially digital photography when it started breaking out in the mid 90's for consumers with the sony mavica. This is where I started getting my hands dirty with photoshop, and I've been using it since high school. However, it wasn't until after college, around 2003, that I wanted to start retouching professionally. I studied photo in college, and I love, love, love magazines, which helped develop my eye for how an image should look if it's to be used editorially or commercially. I definitely retouched on my own all I could, trying to make "perfect skin" using ramshackle techniques i made up to emulate what i saw in magazines. No one would share they're prof. techniques, so it was definitely hard to progress to a "professional" level in retouching. Like veed, my book showed that I had a solid understanding of photoshop, and a good eye, and I was very lucky and fortunate for a boutique studio to hire me as a junior and invest in me.

Someone once described retouching to me as secret society- and how retouching, in a sense, is a dark art- meaning everyone's tight lipped about it's secrets, and how it should be mostly undetectable in images. Kinda a good analogy, i think. The stone masons of retouching. Once you're in, it's like the doors are unlocked and you re-learn everything on a professional level. You'll find that your ramshackle techniques weren't quite as far off as maybe what the professionals are doing, and that a lot of things are much simpler than you may have thought. It was as a junior that I learned the most and became more confident in my abilities, and eventually became a senior. I sent out countless resumes and emails just to get an interview, and I got a lucky break and was taken in.

Anyrate, keep working on your book, learn as much as you can from these forums (I learned a ton from here), and send out as many emails as it takes. Don't be cocky- if you think you know a technique, the studio you're interviewing for might think otherwise- but if you show promise, skill, and a desire to grow, they'll have no problem taking you in and teaching you professional workflows, and investing in you as one of their own...

[ftp-Jeff]

QUOTE.
Someone once described retouching to me as secret society- and how retouching, in a sense, is a dark art- meaning everyone's tight lipped about it's secrets.

It was, before it went digital.

The computer is a great leveller.... At the beginning There was some great work! and some bad work... now it is mostly ordainary work.

[matthiasab]

I agree, I think that the computer is a great leveler, and that work is very ordinary. So if you can make your book stand out from tons that studios see, you're chances are better. We definitely see a lot of work on a daily basis, and sadly the majority of it is seriously laughable. There are still those few that stand out though. Although it may seem that the industry is saturated with retouchers, good retouchers are still very hard to come by- most work we see is very mediocre, or very amateur. Good work stands out like a need in a haystack.

[ftp-Jeff]

I am often told... Your work is too good for us. We will not pay that much, are are not really bothered about quality!

Thats why, I will probably do a max of two more years as a retoucher.

[ftp-Jeff]

OH... And its 6pm here in London...... Just got a job in.

26 scans, full retouch on each one. All to be proofed for monday! There goes the weekend!

[Alfred]

This is a very informative thread, thanks for everyones participation. I am however disappointed to see that very few of the Pro's, other then posting answers in threads, actually post images or work on challenges here. How come?

[Jerryb]

hi skydog,
I was real hesitant about getting into this thread because I am not professional just a greenhorn novice... smile....

however.. these are my 2 cents worth....
First there are schools and colleges that offer classes and a full curriculum.

if someone was just starting out and trying to find what to do to prepare themselves....

the curriculum would consist of
a. a couple of good art classes... this bring in a understanding of colors, perspective, light, etc...
b. defintiely a couple of photography classes is important... defintiely you learn the skills of setting up a short, taking in considertations,, lighting conditions, filters, perspectives.

c. of course you would have a couple of classes specifically for your program ie: if were talking about phtoshop... you would have a basic class to understand all the functions of the program and what they do and a itermediate class in applying all the basic techniques of using the tools... and then your more advance classes in various popular technique

d. and definitely a course in digital art ....

that is what I have seen and envision curriculum to be..... but the story does not end there..... the experience and practice needs to be continued.... no matter what.... practice is always important to maintain your skills...!!

additional info can be obtained from the various books, or tutorials (text or video) that are avail...... or places like retouchpro.... and in a way this site is very unique because of the large number of professional and very talented hobbyiests........

in addition, one would participate in workshops and/or sig pc groups....

Workshops .. on the net I have seen several workshops that are offered, that covers digital art, digital photograpy, photoshop... smile.... and these are place to find out what new out there, what needed, to improve techniques... or learn new techniques

sig pc groups... what they are pc clubs that specializes in various aspects of pc's.. in this case in some cities you would find a sig group that specializes in digital graphics/art or a program... a good place to learn the latest techniques, sharing, and yo can do networking since a lot of these members are professionals...!!

also with large outfits, if one works for them they'll have a in house training program or things are setup for outside traing...

well any way.. those are my thoughts.... for what there worth.... whole lot more can be said but... smiling... and the professionals here can maybe elaborate more..

Originally Posted by skydog

I've been thinking about this subject a lot this morning (dangerous).

Veed (correct me if I am wrong). For you and other retouchers working for agencies, I would think that you signed a secrecy agreement upon being hired. All knowledge, training, discovery and creativity that you obtained or learned within the agency is propriatery. To be competitive you need to provide the "look" that will sell and you need to do it fast. So work flow is also important and propriatery. I am sure you and others don't want your services outsourced.

If this is true, let me rephrase what I am seeking. Where does one go to learn to be the best qualified person for the junior retouching job? Let's be specific. I'm not looking for the practice or work your way up answer.

If you were developing a training program, what would it include? What demonstrated skills would you be seeking? If the person had a gap in this skill where would you tell them to go to learn it? What tools would be necessary or helpful (computer, photoshop, wacom, etc...)? If I was the Dean of a FineArts college offering Retouching as a curriculum, I would surely find out from the experts of the field what training would need to be provided.

[TheVeed]

Originally Posted by Alfred

This is a very informative thread, thanks for everyones participation. I am however disappointed to see that very few of the Pro's, other then posting answers in threads, actually post images or work on challenges here. How come?

Easy: we don't own the rights. We could get sued or fired. I can't speak for the others, but I generally don't retouch much outside of work, since I'm always doing it at work already.

[matthiasab]

Originally Posted by TheVeed

Easy: we don't own the rights. We could get sued or fired. I can't speak for the others, but I generally don't retouch much outside of work, since I'm always doing it at work already.

True, we could get in major trouble for posting photos done at work. I do have clients I retouch for on a continual freelance basis outside of the studio, but the same rules still apply.

[Alfred]

Originally Posted by TheVeed

Easy: we don't own the rights. We could get sued or fired. I can't speak for the others, but I generally don't retouch much outside of work, since I'm always doing it at work already.

By no means, I was not talking about posting images you do at work. I did notice you had participated in a challenge and I liked to image very much!

[TheVeed]

Maybe the August contest of the month could be a beauty retouch image. I'm sure most of us would participate.

[matthiasab]

Originally Posted by TheVeed

Maybe the August contest of the month could be a beauty retouch image. I'm sure most of us would participate.

Yeah, i'd do that...

[Ant]

Originally Posted by TheVeed

Easy: we don't own the rights. We could get sued or fired. I can't speak for the others, but I generally don't retouch much outside of work, since I'm always doing it at work already.

EXACTLY.

Furthermore, if I get one more pm asking to view work I've done I'm going to scream. If you want to see the work that I do, look at ads for big name makeup and hair product companies, look in fashion and lifestyle mags. Look at ads done by Publicis, TBWA Chiat Day, Gotham, Kirshenbaum, McCann Erickson, Grey, Grey Worldwide...... I was going to list photographers, but nevermind.

In addition, and I think supremely important if you aren't taking the "work your way up route", is an education in all things photographic. You need to know input, output, photographic lighting, prepress, digital file processing, etc. It's not just photographs and Photoshop. A strong background in color theory and an art background/appreciation and understanding is also very important. There is also the ocd, incredible attention to detail aspect. If you aren't willing to put in the time, be meticulous and have a notion of how things are supposed to look, then you may well be sunk from the get go.

[Ant]

One more thing.

If you live in bumphack Egypt, there is no market for you. Try as you might, you won't be needed nor appreciated if the industry isn't where you live.

[Alfred]

Originally Posted by Ant

EXACTLY.

Furthermore, if I get one more pm asking to view work I've done I'm going to scream.

Sorry I have ruffled you feathers! Matter of fact I'm not really interested in looking at your retouching, I was just commenting on a fact. And no I do not live in bumphack Egypt! That comment sounded a bit arrogant and out of place, for a great professional like you!

[Ant]

Originally Posted by Alfred

Sorry I have ruffled you feathers! Matter of fact I'm not really interested in looking at your retouching, I was just commenting on a fact. And no I do not live in bumphack Egypt! That comment sounded a bit arrogant and out of place, for a great professional like you!

you think too highly of yourself. I wasn't directing my comment at you.

That comment sounded a bit arrogant and out of place, for a great professional like you!

(Comment removed, remember this is a family forum) Gary

the incessant rudeness/politeness police of this place really annoy me.

[BodegaGo]

starting out i knew photoshop inside out, but didn't know a lick about photography. i was an illustrator first off (pen/ink/watercolor) and i was told when i was hired that drawing/draftsmanship skills were more important than photoshop/photography savvy when my employer was recruiting. oh, and that makeup artists always make the BEST retouchers

first hired as a paid intern, made coffee, did dishes, cleaned desks, answered phones, watched the real retouchers work, and CUT PATHs

i was cutting paths for 6 MONTHS before i was asked to do anything else. by then i was bezie-curve (spelling?) and masking yoda. started retouching crappy editorials, getting yelled at all the time for screwing up, eventually getting yelled at less, started working on the advertising jobs, got a raise

i can't imagine classes would teach you anything useful, edge your way into a studio by working for next to nothing. the only way to learn this stuff is to do it, all the time, everyday, overandoverandoverandoverandover....

[Benny Profane]

Originally Posted by Ant

the incessant rudeness/politeness police of this place really annoy me.

Me too.

There are no classes out there. Well, maybe one or two, if you're lucky enough to get, say, an accomplished NYC retoucher who's bored and wants to blab about his job one night a week at SVA. But, if he/she hasn't professionally retouched in a year, they've probably lost their edge. Actually, it's kinda stunning how little education is out there. I worked for a large company that hired, probably, 2-300 retouchers nationwide, and refused to help pay for any kind of training. Just come on in, sit at this Mac, and pump it out. You're on your own, kid. They probably could have established a little training department of their own, just by putting all those retouchers in a room, and having them ask each other "Say, got a good tip for me today? I'll trade ya". But, nope, they expected expertise to fall from the sky like rain.

So, it's simple. Turn off the tube, say goodbye to your friends, and sit and learn photoshop for the next year using Adobe training books. Then buy Real World Photoshop CS3 (when it comes out) and Eismann's books. They are very good. If you're trying to get a "look", you'll soon find that it ain't so hard - don't mystify it, just do it with layers. That's how, say, Fiscus does it, and once he got it down, it's kinda rote. But that's not the stuff that will pay the rent. Learn to make flesh look great naturally, learn to take wrinkles out of clothes naturally, and learn to make cosmetic bottles look fantastic. That is what you'll be doing most of the time.

Move close to NYC, take an entry level job for low pay and long, lousy hours, and concentrate. If you're good, you'll be real good in a while. And paid well. Good retouchers are hard to find.

[cricket1961]

I agree with Benny nearly 100%.
It takes time to develop skills as a retoucher. And when you go form one employer to another, there is not a great chance that those skills will translate well. So you need to be adaptive and willing to learn "different" ways to get the "same" look.
I have just relocated from the NYC retouching market over to The "texas" market. Why? Tired of the infighting and such that was happening there. I got hired by a superb company with very talented co-workers that will push my talents further rather than the stagnating looks that are starting to choke the NYC market. And I know that those words will piss some people off but I have been around WAY to long to have to be treated like a intern retoucher just because I might be new to a company. And not by the employers but by fellow retouchers. There are some people who need to get a grip on their so called talents and welcome someone who might be able to teach them something new. Especially one who is not known for keeping "secrets" to himself.

Just keep practising what you do and you will move up. Don't think you are the epitome of retouching but DO think well of yourself and you WILL get pretty high up in the retouching scene.

Chris

[Benny Profane]

what the......Texas??!! Jeez, you surprised me. I guess that blows my NYC argument. Good luck, but how's that summer Dallas heat?

[cricket1961]

The retouching at this shop is as hi end as anything in NYC Benny.
And it is HOT!! It doesn't help that I am not a fan of air conditioning either.
Seriously. There are good accounts etc anywhere you go, and if you have a name for yourself you will either have a following of clients or they will pop
up once it is known you are there.
I am not saying that if you are starting out or if you ae a intermediate retoucher that Texas is the place for you. But the company and myself are going to try to change the retouching scene here outside of Dallas, and we are off to a Great start by the way.

Chris

[Benny Profane]

I want a high end shop to open in Jackson, Wyoming, with a branch office in Maui, and a private jet to shuttle me back and forth. Goodbye, NYC.

[TheVeed]

I just want a high-end shop in Bermuda. And maybe with flights to Los Angeles.

Oh and Paris.

k thx.