Digital backrounds - depth/seperation?

[jamz]

Hi,

I'm helping out a local photographer who has recently moved into the digital photography world. I am giving him some pointers in Photoshop here and there.

He has a very large studio with different stations/scenes around the perimeter of the studio. At one station I suggested he paint the wall chroma key green to help with selecting the background and possibly dropping in various digital backgrounds. There are a few issues he must work out first. Pull the props farther away from the wall and evenly light the wall to eliminate shadows.

I have a few crude sample shots with bad lighting and shadows etc...but I thought I would clean them up and try out a few sample backdrops just to see how they would work.

The problem here is that there seems to be a lack of depth or separation between the subject and background. In other words the image sort of has a flat look. I know I could blur the background a little and simulate some depth of field but some photos I want a large aperture (full focus) from foreground to background.

Are there any tricks that I might be able to do to the background to give it more depth/separation? I'm not having to much of a problem with the muslin/pattern types of background. I can play around with vignette - lighting etc..

The problem seems to be with background scenes - landscapes, buildings or any real life images. They all have sort of the pasted look where the subject seems to be sitting right on top of the background. It's not the background selection that is bad (no cut out look around the foreground).
I'm starting to think that there must be specially designed backgrounds that have special lighting/shadows/highlights/open areas that would surround the subject and simulate the depth that I'm looking for.

Maybe you can't just grab any image and make it work or maybe you can with some Photoshop manipulation. Anyone have experience with realistic looking background insertions? Not the typical hand painted look but a real image like a city background, forest, garden etc..

Any input greatly appreciated,

jamz

[des151]

Hi jamz,
Have you seen Pellepiano's site www.studiobild.com
Ray

[Swampy]

I have found that perspective, proportion, lighting and shadows are key to good compositing. Many times the lighting of the background is different that the foreground subject, i.e. background is warm, foreground is cool or the light sources are different. This should be easy enough to control in a studio.

Here's a composit I did with outside lighting. I think the key to "believability" in this piece is the shadows that I added under the foreground subjects.

[jamz]

Originally Posted by des151

Hi jamz,
Have you seen Pellepiano's site www.studiobild.com
Ray

Hi Ray,

Thanks for the link...there are some nice shots there. Now I'm not sure which photos have digital backgrounds and that must be good. I would assume the Yamaha and the guy standing in the water...very nice..believable. Now I have to study why it looks believable.

jamz

[BillFrey]

Hi jamz,

I'm sure Pellepiano will correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall him posting that ALL of his pictures have replaced backgrounds.

Edit, found the thread:

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/pho...tml#post156956

[des151]

You're welcome jamz. Pellepiano posts on rtp, maybe he can help you.
Ray

[duwayne]

Here's one I put together from a couple of photos from this site. As Swampy said, there are a lot of factors that determine how realistic the composite is. The woman had to be re-sized exactly for her position in the perspective. Slightly larger or smaller and she didn't look right. If I move her up or down, she needs to be re-sized. I had to reverse the woman to get the lighting to match.

Also, the color balance of the two images needs to match. It's funny how picky the brain is in determining what is real.

[pellepiano]

Thanks for linking to my site =), and yes all images have digital backgrounds.

The foreground and backround images have to share about the same type of lighting and color temperature to be believable. So either you adjust the lighting on the model to fit the selected background or shoot the background so it will fit your lighting setup. Of lately I have been experimenting a lot with images with shallow depth of field ( simulation in Photoshop always seems to fall short ), this sometimes adds some realism.

I try to use my own backgrund images as much as possible, but its hard to find deserts around here so sometimes I buy images from www.dreamstime.com or find free ones at www.sxc.hu

[jamz]

Originally Posted by Swampy

I have found that perspective, proportion, lighting and shadows are key to good compositing. Many times the lighting of the background is different that the foreground subject, i.e. background is warm, foreground is cool or the light sources are different. This should be easy enough to control in a studio.

Here's a composit I did with outside lighting. I think the key to "believability" in this piece is the shadows that I added under the foreground subjects.

Thanks Swampy..sorry for the delay in the reply..our internet connection was down at work as we combined T1 circuits to double our bandwidth..

I agree with everything perspective, proportion, lighting and shadows are key. Your image seems to work just right.

Thanks much..for the input..

jamz

[jamz]

Originally Posted by duwayne

Here's one I put together from a couple of photos from this site. As Swampy said, there are a lot of factors that determine how realistic the composite is. The woman had to be re-sized exactly for her position in the perspective. Slightly larger or smaller and she didn't look right. If I move her up or down, she needs to be re-sized. I had to reverse the woman to get the lighting to match.

Also, the color balance of the two images needs to match. It's funny how picky the brain is in determining what is real.

Picky it is for sure! I see what you are saying and your image also works! Good deal...so I can assume that these "canned" backdrops/images require a lot more work than just plopping them in..

jamz

[jamz]

Originally Posted by pellepiano

Thanks for linking to my site =), and yes all images have digital backgrounds.

The foreground and backround images have to share about the same type of lighting and color temperature to be believable. So either you adjust the lighting on the model to fit the selected background or shoot the background so it will fit your lighting setup. Of lately I have been experimenting a lot with images with shallow depth of field ( simulation in Photoshop always seems to fall short ), this sometimes adds some realism.

I try to use my own backgrund images as much as possible, but its hard to find deserts around here so sometimes I buy images from www.dreamstime.com or find free ones at www.sxc.hu

Pellepiano,

Thanks much for the input! I am going to spend some time analyzing your images and take in what I can observe. You have some nice images there thats for sure! I going to post a sample image before and after and if you or anyone else can comment that would be great.

thanks much - jamz

[jamz]

Here is a test shot that was not lit correctly and I tried to make look half decent so I can work on the background. I just did a quick crop and tweaked the image a little. This scene ( when it set up correctly ) will be a rooftop shot with some type of city or actually any scene that might work.

I am going to have the props maybe 6-8 feet away. These are portrait type photos so I want to keep a fairly close shot. Any comments on what might be needed to make this type of shot believable, would be welcomed!!

Jamz

[jamz]

Originally Posted by pellepiano

Thanks for linking to my site =), and yes all images have digital backgrounds.

Pellepiano,

I'm new to this forum/site and have not had much time to look around but all I can say is WOW!. Your images are excellent! Do you photograph all your models and retouch also? Some of the best I have seen!

Regards!

Jamz

[pellepiano]

Yes, I shoot the models and retouch too. I really like the ability to change backgrounds and do it 99% of the time.

The model in your composite would be more suited in a sunny background as she a has a warm yellow skintone. An alternative is to tone down the colors to match the sky. Or change the sky.

If you want to simulate a cloudy day you will need a larger lightsource to diffuse the light more.

Here is an example where I used a large lightsource ( white sheet ) to simulate a rainy day lighting.

http://www.pellepiano.com/thread_ima...e_st_peter.jpg

[Calvinhollywood]

Hello from Germany
I always using digital Bakcgrounds
The most important thing is the lightning that you have shadows who you can bring in the new location.
the same with the mirror.... that all makes your picture "real"
nobody will think that this is a virtual background.
i always photograph at grey backgrounds

sorry for my bad english

you can see much more before-afters on my homepage
http://www.calvinhollywood.de

lg Calvin


53.jpg
54.jpg

[Swampy]

Hi, Calvin. Welcome to RTP

Very nice composit!

[pellepiano]

Great stuff Calvin. Fantastic retouching and compositing.

[jamz]

Thanks Calvin...I have come to the conclusion that subject must be correctly lit and then adjust the shadows,highlights, sharpness contrast to match the background. I think I am starting to grasp the technique. Here is a sample photo I found ( apologies to the owner) used for the test. And then some Photoshop work. Maybe I am getting close?

Thanks to all ..
Jamz

[des151]

jamz,
Looks like your dialing in the technique.
Ray

[jamz]

Thanks Ray! And I completely agree with the others..some fantastic work there Calvin!!!!

[Dave.Cox]

Hi Jamz,

Like others have mentioned here, lighting, and shadows are very important to creating a believable photo montage. Equally important is perspective. To me, the above photo make the subject look to large, with his head up there in the clouds. A good way to get your subject into the picture is to determine where the subjects eyes would be when observed by some one about the same size. With a back ground like the one above, that would be where the sky meets the ground. If you look at some one that is about the same height as you, typically their eyes will be about the same height as the horizon line. As it is, you seem to be looking down the road, but up at the guy. Moving his eyes down level with the horizon line would make this photo balance better.

[jaspreetsiingh]

please how can i remove my backround can u email me .
i shall so thankfull to him please

jaspreetsinghjassi@yahoo.com

[Swampy]

Jaspreet...

Although many might like to email you a detailed explanation, it kind of goes against what these forums are all about, sharing information.

Look in the tutorial sections for key words such as "extracting", "background removal", "masking" etc. The wheel has already been invented. :-)