Burn And Dodge Problems

[ivan watkins]

I've had issues trying to use burn and dodge to cover up facial blemishes instead of using the healing brush. Most of my images are of non caucasian people. When I try to dodge on a person skins it ends up mutating into weird colors like orange or red even though the complexion is fine.

How does one create flawless skin on dark skinned people WITHOUT using blurring, cloning or the healing brush and simply relying on dodging and burning without the colors mutating?

Ivan

[Markzebra]

You will probably find that the dual Curve method works best for this. After you've moved the composite curve up or down, you can of course control the Curve colour channels until you get exactly the tone you want. You can also Group a Hue/Saturation adjustment with the curves and move the Hue slider.

Another solution is to use an Overlay layer, for Burn you may like to sample a color and then darken it taking out some saturation. Non white skin is sometimes more difficult to make sure colors don't go wierd I agree.

[edgework]

Originally Posted by ivan watkins

I've had issues trying to use burn and dodge to cover up facial blemishes instead of using the healing brush.

I would suggest that there is a good reason for this: You're using the wrong tool for the job. Dodging and Burning, whatever flavor of it you prefer, is best for fine tuning all those myriad irregularities in tone that need to be tweaked this way or that to bring the whole surface into a uniform effect. It's not great for gross shifts in tone and the complexity of any given blemish is far more work than you want to deal with, given that by their nature, blemishes produce both lights and darks that cause them to stand out from their surroundings. Moving in close enough with dodging and burning is theoretically feasible, but unnecessary, since the healing brush will do most of the heavy lifting with a fraction of the effort, usually with no residual clutter.

How does one create flawless skin on dark skinned people WITHOUT using blurring, cloning or the healing brush and simply relying on dodging and burning without the colors mutating?

I'll resist getting into a detailed discussion of D & B here; one, because Markzebra offered an intelligent reply that should give you some good ideas to start with, two, because I think you need to revisit the healing brush and figure out why it's not working for you.

A third option, similar in technique to D & B, can be effective when you have areas of general blotchiness that don't really respond well to healing and are too large or numerous for D & B. Take a couple of readings of your skin tone, one of a representive area of blotchiness, one of nearby smooth skin that you want to match. In a curve adjustment layer, plug in the numbers for input and output in each channel, then mask the whole thing. Now paint white into the mask the same way you would in a Dodge/Burn layer or mask. It requires the same subtlty as D&B, but by definition, you avoid the unwanted color drift, and you can cover a fairly wide range with one curve, bringing darker (or lighter, as the case may be) patches into line with the surrounding tones.

Don't try to do everything with one tool either. So you dodge & burn and you find you have some irregularities left over. Hit them with the healing brush. Try a targeted curve. Then go back and do some more D&B. Each technique is a tool to be used as needed, not a one size fits all solution.

[Ant]

Originally Posted by NimfabebeAida

Dodge and burn is not the key to remove blemishes. U may use it , but I think is harder. Clone, copy, heal, patch but leave the doge and burn to shadowing and lights.

IGNORE THIS ADVISE.

there is no one way to do anything. If while dodging or burning the skin changes color, change it back the way you want it. D&B is not the magic fix for all and the only thing involved in skin work. they'd take all the other tools out of PS if that were the case. You do it until it looks right, however many steps it takes.

[DaveSpanton]

Hi

Is there any particular reason you don't wish to use clone/healing tools?

[Ant]

If you are referring to me, I'm not opposed, however solely using clone and healing rarely looks good - just mucked up pixels.

[DaveSpanton]

I meant the original poster, I just wondered if there was a specific reason he couldnt use other tools.

[Ant]

Originally Posted by DaveSpanton

I meant the original poster, I just wondered if there was a specific reason he couldnt use other tools.

How long have you been at Corbis? I started my retouching career there right out of photo school at the headquarters outside of Seattle.

[mistermonday]

Ivan, yes there is a way - LAB is the color space that separates color from luminosity. You can dodge and burn without appreciably shifting the color.
Try converting your image to LAB mode. Add a new layer filled with 50% gray and set the blend mode to Overlay. Alternately use a soft Black or White brush at very low opacity to burn and dodge.
Regards, Murray

[ivan watkins]

Hey Guys thanks a bunch for all the advice. I actually love the healing brush especially when resampling a lot. However, on this forum I've heard some of the purists say that D & B is the way the pros get perfect skin that still has the original texture. Therefore, I was trying to "learn" how the alledged "pros" achieve this by using only two tools.

In a nut shell I think that the healing brush is a life saver.

Thanks for all the suggestions and guidance.

[KR1156]

also keep in mind, the pros use this method along with pro models, pro makeup, pro stylist, pro photography, etc.

if you're just messing around with your digital pics from joe schmoes bday party, healing brush will suit just fine!

[Ant]

Originally Posted by NimfabebeAida

It's my opinion so it's no up to u to say if it's right or wrong. I said it takes a lot more if u do it with dodge and burn, and if there is a faster way it should take it. There are more ways of doing the same thing in Photoshop.

It is up to me to say how I see it. I looked at your work and there is a reason you are looking for work... I'm a professional. I know right from wrong and am qualified to make the distinction. I also wish to stop the bad advise from spreading for the benefit of those who wish to learn.

[CaptainHook]

Originally Posted by NimfabebeAida

Don't be this agressive

Dont be this passive aggressive.


See, i shouldn't tell people how to behave either.
The only people here that can actually censor Ant's posts,
are the mods. And so far, from what i know they
let him be.

I personally am not offended by Ant's approach and
actually appreciate his directness without sugar coating
anything.

I also appreciate a lot of the input from chris, edgework,
KR1156, etc, etc

Like with photoshop, everyone has their style.
You don't have to like them all, but trying to make
them fit your view of what's acceptable isn't fair
on everyone else either.

[Markzebra]

Actually the methods you use depends largely on resolution and sharpness. On high quality images you have to approach like a cosmetic surgeon suffering from OCD - but "if you're just messing around with your digital pics from joe schmoes bday party, healing brush will suit just fine!" as KR says is probably true. Theres no point is arsing around wasting time if theres no visible skin texture to begin with. For far away stuff or anything that even remotely out of focus its amazing what you can get away with, no point in taking 3 hours using D&B to do something that will take half an hours work, and achieve the same result.

Whats certainly out is any blurring or filtering whatsoever - just never works, and always looks awful, doesn't matter how you try and do it, using "clever" channel operations or whatever, it will always look retouched. Blurring destroys not just texture but also tonal shifts important to retain form, and the eye can always pick up on this.

[Hello_taipan]

i'm a newbie-white-belt in retouching. And I am greatful to find posts saying "this or that is BS if u want pro results"
i spent months blurring things off thinking i was doing it right until a post stated clearly, underlined and bold : no blur !!
Thanks to that i could improve, letting aside techniques that'd bring me nowhere near a retouching career.

[SteveB2005]

Originally Posted by Markzebra

Actually the methods you use depends largely on resolution and sharpness. On high quality images you have to approach like a cosmetic surgeon suffering from OCD - but "if you're just messing around with your digital pics from joe schmoes bday party, healing brush will suit just fine!" as KR says is probably true. Theres no point is arsing around wasting time if theres no visible skin texture to begin with. For far away stuff or anything that even remotely out of focus its amazing what you can get away with, no point in taking 3 hours using D&B to do something that will take half an hours work, and achieve the same result.

Whats certainly out is any blurring or filtering whatsoever - just never works, and always looks awful, doesn't matter how you try and do it, using "clever" channel operations or whatever, it will always look retouched. Blurring destroys not just texture but also tonal shifts important to retain form, and the eye can always pick up on this.

And another thing to remember is, on the really high rez images that pros are shooting for pre-press for the leading fashion mags, the photographer has a whole staff of assistants to get the best he/she can out of the camera. All the great retouching tricks in the world are not going to "save" a substandard image. A journeyman pre-press tech took me on a tour at a really high end production house and the retouchers and color correct team won't even work an image if it is not already 90-95% there anyway. If it is a film image, they will tell the drum scanners to rescan it. Those files are HUGE! You can see blackheads on top of blackheads, pimples on pimples, lip hair, blood shot eyes, etc. And those pores are bigtime and have to remain flawless in the image.

I do some retouching, but not at that level, unless I can get the D&B thing down and some other techniques, I wouldn't bother testing at a high end shop. I was on on a test once and some dude was being tested. The better shops will pay you to test and his test was about 2 hours to clean up a hi-rez fashion model. He spent about 30 minutes using the standard simple "gaussian blur trick" we all know, smearing pixels with the cloner. The supervisor came over to check his work and he just said, "what is this, are you kidding me"? That won't fly here sir. They told him to study more and come back in a year when he felt "professional."

[Markzebra]

"The supervisor came over to check his work and he just said, "what is this, are you kidding me"? That won't fly here sir. They told him to study more and come back in a year when he felt "professional." he was lucky. Over here I've seen people just dropped, no indication of why , no help. Its to stop them learning anything I reckon. Pisses me off, but just goes to show that there's a lot of people working who are defensive enough to treat people like that.

[SteveB2005]

Originally Posted by CaptainHook

Dont be this passive aggressive.


See, i shouldn't tell people how to behave either.
The only people here that can actually censor Ant's posts,
are the mods. And so far, from what i know they
let him be.

I personally am not offended by Ant's approach and
actually appreciate his directness without sugar coating
anything.

I also appreciate a lot of the input from chris, edgework,
KR1156, etc, etc

Like with photoshop, everyone has their style.
You don't have to like them all, but trying to make
them fit your view of what's acceptable isn't fair
on everyone else either.

I know some here think Ant can be sharp in his opinions, but he is a working pro and he knows what it takes to get into the high end retouching houses. His truth, critiques and comments can sting the ego a bit, but he gives credit when credit is due. You do have to be at a certain high enough level to work in high end pre-press and retouching plants. The money and budgets on these ads is easily high 5 and 6 figure costs to run them, especially cosmetic and fashion concepts.

It would be cool to learn a few fancy Photoshop tricks, push a few buttons and create these outstanding pro looking retouches, and then check your bank balance for the big bucks, but unfortunately, that's not the real high end ad world. It's still a craft that's mostly done manually with an artistic eye and knowing the program and be able to consistantly get results in the allotted time. I doubt we will be seeing robotics taking over the craft like the car builders at GM are using on the assembly line that literally put many auto workers into early retirement

Some of the ads I have seen for high end retouchers demand the utmost skill, professionalism and quality workflow. I think that is what Ant is trying to convey to people, you have to be tops in the big game to make the cut, and it ain't easy brother to getting there, other than hard work and talent

[Oh_Heck]

I always find it amusing how people will come in and excuse Ants rude behavior. Fine, the guy does work professionally. There are plenty of professionals out there, and I'm sure there are many far superior to Ant, that lack his bloated ego and sense of self adoration.

Christ, he equated giving information to people on this board like "taking rednecks to a wine tasting.."

Plenty books, classes and people out there to get good information from without having to deal with Ants garbage.

[Hello_taipan]

Originally Posted by Oh_Heck

Christ, he equated giving information to people on this board like "taking rednecks to a wine tasting.."

i remember that post, lol ! i liked the metaphor XD
funny thing i got a teacher exactly like that, using the same expression "button pushers"