What does "REAL" mean in Bridal Jewelry?

[SnakeSuspenders]

This is my first post so I hope I get it right.

Hi people.

I'm frustrated. Before I climb onto my soap box at work or post images for you, I would like to know what you think.

What does 'it looks real' mean versus "it looks fake - like a line drawing?" - especially when 3 different people have different opinions.

I'm dealing with a bridal jewelry company and am hitting a wall (on the left side and the right).

What is good jewelry retouching? What sucks? How much of a role does photography play in the final, considering the expectation: Photoshop cures all (aging, AIDS, dust, cancer...) Look at magazine ads (?) - personal work - for the source? You can provide websites. Befores and afters are actually crucial at this time. I'll upload, just wanted to test the proverbial climate before asking stupid questions.

Thanks.

[Ziaphra]

That is always going to be open for debate. Pick up any major store catalogue and leaf through it. If you want to keep it 'real' then the photography aspect of it is going to play the major role...it is imperative to have a clean dust free envornment, clean polished jewellery and good lighting. There should be very little retouching needed afterwards.

[SilvaFox]

Look at Tiffany and David Yurman. That's real. Look in the middle of your Sunday paper. That's not.

I did "not real" jewelry as part of my regular gig for years. The silos alone nearly drove me out of the business. By the time we smoothed out everything the customer wanted smooth, they looked fake. Just the way they liked them.

Good luck to you.

[SnakeSuspenders]

Thanks. I checked out the sites. I thought www.ice.com was actually kind of bad. Sorry. The bridal stuff is so blown out. Yurman, of course is amazing.

Ziaphra - the samples on your site are quite good!

Attached is a where I'm at - original image (I don't do the photography but it is done on site so I can work with him), my retouching which is said, "Does not look real - like a line drawing," and a version when I pulled back on the retouching.

How do you get that super crisp contrast (check out www.diamondgraphics.com ) without redrawing the whole ring?

Thanks so much!

[Ziaphra]

I was being sarcastic about ice that was why I edited my comment above! Thanx for the nice comment, I didn't expect you to go to my site.

I like this edit of yours but the base could be worked on some more.

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/att...5&d=1207936490

[DiamondsDr47]

It's all depend, capture, usage, consistency. For example the image you have, will take a few minutes to make (I mean shoot, don't take it as a critique).
The images for the magazines are done with careful planning and setup (not all of them), there different type of equipment (consumer type dslr can bring you up to certain level only) and expertise used.
Also there is style and consistency through the line. Sure the capture is very important.
Best regards,
.........................................................................
www.edgarmaivel.com

[vidir]

Great post guys. SnakeSuspenders good job! Would you mind explaining what you did and so forth?

Keep up the great job

Best regards

[JavierT]

I agree what Diamonds said.

Capture is very important in Jewelry. Be carefull or not is the difference between more or less postproduction time. I shot Silver and Gold Jewelry and sometimes I have to work for one cliente in very bad conditions, and obviusly, the pictures I get aren´t the same. Then, I have to work later with the computer more than I normally need.

[JavierT]

Originally Posted by SnakeSuspenders

Thanks. I checked out the sites. I thought www.ice.com was actually kind of bad. Sorry. The bridal stuff is so blown out. Yurman, of course is amazing.

Ziaphra - the samples on your site are quite good!

Attached is a where I'm at - original image (I don't do the photography but it is done on site so I can work with him), my retouching which is said, "Does not look real - like a line drawing," and a version when I pulled back on the retouching.

How do you get that super crisp contrast (check out www.diamondgraphics.com ) without redrawing the whole ring?

Thanks so much!

Hi, Snake

I like your retouch, looks nice.

Good Job.

[Nanls]

I retouch beauty, jewelry and other product but primarily jewelry and I also think you did a nice job. If you look through jewelry magazines you'll see such a wide range of styles; the good the bad and certainly the ugly. Best advise I was ever given was to make sure you know what your customer's expectations are and get them to show examples of the style and quality they wish to obtain. Can save you a lot of work.
~Nancy

[SnakeSuspenders]

Thanks for all the great comments everyone and for the input.

The thing is that I still can't get one main boss to like my retouching so I turned for help. He keeps saying it doesn't look "real." When I get by a scanner, I'll scan something that is deemed "real" in his eyes. I keep working to stylize and make it pretty, but am hitting a wall with this guy.

vidir - what I did - lots of masks and close-in cloning and the oh so lovely smudge tool at 70-90% using shift to create crisp lines. Mask out the stones and apply separate curves to boost contrast.. Burn natural shadows and dodge the highlights throughout.

I know it's so much about the photography, but I'm not too knowledgeable on that end, but need to get involved. It actually was shot in a minute, but in a special box with fixed lighting... yet it looks like something should change on that end.

Again - thanks for the feedback!

[DiamondsDr47]

"still can't get one main boss to like my retouching" - I’m surprised he likes the pic then….

What the purpose of this work, where are you aiming to. What’s the target?
“Real” is whatever perceived by human brain as real. The blowout gold is still perceived as gold. This image suffers from optical diffraction…etc
Best regards,
.....................................................................
www.edgarmaivel.com

[SnakeSuspenders]

It's a bridal jewelry manufacturing firm. The images are shot for our directiry so sales can access it nationally. A;so for a cd catalog, ontro presentation slide shows, loops for retail stores to use, ads, trade-show graphics, you name it. 'Our' cleint is primarily the retail store. yet 'my' client is, you know. He likes www.zivajewels.com while I feel www.ajaffe.com stands out more.

Best.

[DiamondsDr47]

Believe it or not the best thing get the "right" pro or semi pro photographer for the job,
The retouching will be minimal, and company will definitely stand out much better
then those guys!

[SnakeSuspenders]

Originally Posted by DiamondsDr47

It's all depend, capture, usage, consistency. For example the image you have, will take a few minutes to make (I mean shoot, don't take it as a critique).
The images for the magazines are done with careful planning and setup (not all of them), there different type of equipment (consumer type dslr can bring you up to certain level only) and expertise used.
Also there is style and consistency through the line. Sure the capture is very important.
Best regards,
.........................................................................
www.edgarmaivel.com

Alrighty... here I go again about reality. The jewelry company I'm working with moved forward and went to a firm (samples attached). The place specializes in jewelry so has everything set up in a high-end studio.

I'm sorry, but I don't like it. I prefer more flesh on jewelry... and don't get me started about the ring looking real. I had already posted a sample of my work... but I would like some feedback regarding THIS work. Compare - Contrast. I also attached a banner we're using.

Bestest - thanks for replies!
olga

[Verywierd]

As someone who does lot of CGI work, the concept of making things look "real" comes up a lot. I don't know if it helps, but a quick look at the images, (yours and theirs)brings two things to mind.

1. They have the rings casting a shadow. This tends to make things look more "solid" as it is affecting its envirionment.

2. They have visible point/directional light sources, which creates better highlights in the gems and on the reflective surfaces. Totally flat light like that in a light tent never looks "real".

3. The only way to make an metal or relective item look totally realistic is to have a small (almost unnoticable) amount of reflection of the envirionment showing in the reflective surfaces.

[SnakeSuspenders]

Thanks Wierd. That's a thought that I had too: there has to be something else in the environment.

[DiamondsDr47]

Hi, i don't know how the original files look like, to me it's flat, there is no realy good separation between diamonds and gold, also don't color the diamonds that much, as of banner small images don't really matter looks ok. In my opinion overall problem is that many companies trying to do photography for cheap(or not the right guy for the job) and as mentioned that before the equipment matters( and it's not cheap, eve to scan negatives), think about it people pointing to those huge companies like blue...who takes by price, do they have to use real pictures? nope they have a name and this is trust. Ok there is fashion companies they invest a lot in to it. So the small companies should make quality product photos in order to compete, they have to show the product that stands out, look at Tiff... they do it right...Sorry for generalization. I'll see if a can post some B&A tonight.
Best regards,
Edgar

[SnakeSuspenders]

Thanks Dr. I don't know what the original looked like either. Diamond Graphics shot and retouched this last pair of rings and I somehow thought that they were above and beyond work like this. You did hit the problem... there really is no difference in brilliance between the diamond and the gold. That's something to remember.

And yes - small images don't matter. I'll post the hires versions next week for critique. I really anticipate seeing some original DiamondDr47 'original shot vs final product' samples including info on equipment. I might pitch the equipment. I have some bug in my system that makes me want to perfect bridal jewelry. I had photo restoration in my system when I was younger and have that down to a science - now it's jewelry.

I understand all you're saying about high and low budget systems and companies that know how to do it right... Tiffany and many others do it right. They also aren't cheap, nor are they dealing with the manufacturing and distributing on-site either. That's where I am. My crew have a mind of their own... they spend so much time, money and energy on producing and distributing these pieces that they have little time left to simply see what is better for them.

I really look forward to seeing some B&As. It will help me get my point across regarding my work, I think.

Bestest,
olga

[DiamondsDr47]

Hi, Olga here is one sample, can be found in INSTORE magazine.
http://www.pbase.com/emaivel/retouching
Best regards,