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Photo Retouching "Improving" photos, post-production, correction, etc.

Has anyone else seen the new PDN Photo Annual?

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  #11  
Old 05-09-2008, 12:05 PM
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cricket1961 cricket1961 is offline
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Re: Has anyone else seen the new PDN Photo Annual?

Snook

I can see where you are coming from.

However your examples are not that good.

Songwriters get credit listings on Song sheets, Lyric Sheets, Album covers and more.
Studios are also listed on wrappers for the cd's or album covers. As are producers, sound technicians, studio musicians, remixers, and more.

What Benny is saying is not new nor is it greedy. I am on the line about this as you will see in some of my older posts. I don't see it happening, but it would be nice if it did. I have seen some terrible photographs worked to death and ending up looking like something even the Photographer did not at first envision. In cases such as those it is clearly a collaboration between the two and in the majority of creative industries fair due is given.

Just a what if her to think about.

A photographer is hired by a ad agency or a Magazine to do a shoot for them. They tell the Photographer what they want and what they are looking for. The Photographer does a bang up job with the shoot and every one is pleased and thrilled at the results.
The raw materials are supplied by the ad agency/magazine art director and the Photographer makes them look nice together.

Shouldn't the Ad agency/Magazine get the credit for the image and not the Photographer? After all, all the Photographer did was put some life to the Agencies vision.

If not, then how is this different from a Photographer giving a raw file (or even a processed one) and handing it to a retoucher to make the Photographers vision become a reality?

Like I said, I am on the fence. I get credit sometimes and sometimes I don't. No biggie to me at this point in my career. I just like helping Photographers get further in their career.

Chris
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  #12  
Old 05-09-2008, 12:29 PM
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Benny Profane Benny Profane is offline
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Re: Has anyone else seen the new PDN Photo Annual?

Snook, I'm not asking for full credit. Where's you read that? But just a little. As I said, Copywriters got a mention on a few of those pix. Please.

And did you ever hang out in the theatre and watch some credits to a movie? Man, that's a lot of people getting credit. Including our equivalent, special effects and all that stuff.
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  #13  
Old 05-09-2008, 12:50 PM
Dutch Rich Dutch Rich is offline
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Re: Has anyone else seen the new PDN Photo Annual?

Snook, if all retouchers decided to change their careers to photography, you would be whistling a different tune. However as an artist you decided to evolve and add that extra medium, image manipulation, to your arsenal because you realize the powers. Years ago I did a cover for the Face, a famous model holding a cat. Probably a day and a half worth of work for editorial rate. Swapped the cats head, fixed the girls posture, retouched skin evened out the background, fixed make-up, changed colors etc etc. On a Scitex, no layers! It was my first face cover so I ran to the store to pick up my copy when it released only to find that the cat and everyone else was mentioned in the credits but not the retoucher. Photography is pretty much one of the only creative industries that apply these methods of systematically suppressing acknowledgment of the collaborative element. For this however photographers are not to blame, we are. For not demanding.

Rich
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  #14  
Old 05-09-2008, 01:12 PM
Ant Ant is offline
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Re: Has anyone else seen the new PDN Photo Annual?

I get credit occasionally. I just look at it as "that's cool" and move on. If an image you worked on appears in LeBook or other source book you often get credit; it's just not standard practice editorially. Then there are times when I'm made to do things I don't like or which in my opinion are over the top or just plain look stupid. In those cases, I want no mention of my name and am grateful for not being credited..

I think a better move would be to be included in some royalties/usage and or copyright when the image has been manipulated to such an extent that the original is nowhere near the end product or wouldn't have existed at all without the creation done by the retoucher.
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  #15  
Old 05-09-2008, 01:55 PM
Dutch Rich Dutch Rich is offline
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Re: Has anyone else seen the new PDN Photo Annual?

It would take acknowledgement first before making such demands. That's why I thought the Pascal article was important as it ads to the general publics awareness. When people are more knowledgeable than these goals will become easier.
We do not have law on our side either because the altering of digital data and it's ownership are rather new.
It becomes easier when you create things from input that wasn't produced by the hired photog, like a background for example.
I recently used a stock image of ink in water to create a fire and smoke background, to go along with a product shot for a baccardi brand. I brought the royalty issue up to my client by via e-mail. Got a call a few minutes later saying "off course we were going to give you royalties for the background". Naturally this was a unique case, but if you do a lot of product ads this can occur quite often. So when in doubt ask. I'm thinking the disagreement with Snook might stem from the extent of his knowledge of our jobdescription, or lack of it. No disrespect to you Snook.

Rich
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  #16  
Old 05-09-2008, 04:23 PM
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snook305 snook305 is offline
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Re: Has anyone else seen the new PDN Photo Annual?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cricket1961 View Post
Snook

I can see where you are coming from.

However your examples are not that good.

Songwriters get credit listings on Song sheets, Lyric Sheets, Album covers and more.
Studios are also listed on wrappers for the cd's or album covers. As are producers, sound technicians, studio musicians, remixers, and more.

What Benny is saying is not new nor is it greedy. I am on the line about this as you will see in some of my older posts. I don't see it happening, but it would be nice if it did. I have seen some terrible photographs worked to death and ending up looking like something even the Photographer did not at first envision. In cases such as those it is clearly a collaboration between the two and in the majority of creative industries fair due is given.

Just a what if her to think about.

A photographer is hired by a ad agency or a Magazine to do a shoot for them. They tell the Photographer what they want and what they are looking for. The Photographer does a bang up job with the shoot and every one is pleased and thrilled at the results.
The raw materials are supplied by the ad agency/magazine art director and the Photographer makes them look nice together.

Shouldn't the Ad agency/Magazine get the credit for the image and not the Photographer? After all, all the Photographer did was put some life to the Agencies vision.

If not, then how is this different from a Photographer giving a raw file (or even a processed one) and handing it to a retoucher to make the Photographers vision become a reality?

Like I said, I am on the fence. I get credit sometimes and sometimes I don't. No biggie to me at this point in my career. I just like helping Photographers get further in their career.

Chris
You right probably but ad agency that I work with are always just ripping ads out of magazines and copying that.. Seriously!

I think if you have a "marriage" with a certain retoucher I could see your point a little.
And Agian that is if your both are creating something new or different.
But the basic retoucher, I do not see the point of even mentioning it..
There are a lot of guys that can do that... especially since the digital age where everyone is a photographer/Photoshopper....
Snook
Hope that makes sense.
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  #17  
Old 05-09-2008, 06:03 PM
Dutch Rich Dutch Rich is offline
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Re: Has anyone else seen the new PDN Photo Annual?

Snook, what do you think is an appropriate way for a high end retoucher to show what he can do.
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  #18  
Old 05-09-2008, 06:33 PM
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cricket1961 cricket1961 is offline
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Re: Has anyone else seen the new PDN Photo Annual?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snook305 View Post
You right probably but ad agency that I work with are always just ripping ads out of magazines and copying that.. Seriously!

I think if you have a "marriage" with a certain retoucher I could see your point a little.
And Agian that is if your both are creating something new or different.
But the basic retoucher, I do not see the point of even mentioning it..
There are a lot of guys that can do that... especially since the digital age where everyone is a photographer/Photoshopper....
Snook
Hope that makes sense.
Agreed on all points here Snook.

Chris
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