Not that Pascal needs any more attention

Dutch Rich · #16 05-10-2008, 03:30 PM

So here's the backlash of that article in the Daily News of today.
http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx
Pay special attention to the first sentence.
As we're here stroking ourselves about how we might be better than Pascal, we are truly ignoring the message. Yesterday Snook said that we were well paid and shouldn't dare demand credit for what we do. Today the Daily News is saying that retouching is almost unethical and that we should stay in the locked-up basement. For those of you who consider yourselves artist I suggest rallying behind the man and coming to the defense of our profession. People who've just discovered the clone-brush do not apply. Annie claims that she strictly uses him as a printer, which I've heard from fashion photographers all the time. It's their way of saying we're dispensable.
Really want to know what you guys think.

R

cricket1961 · #17 05-10-2008, 03:46 PM

Uh.. Rich. I not for a moment stoked myself about being better than Pascal. I have never seen his personal retouching work that I know of. I have reworked a lot from his shop and it may or may not have been his. I do know that he hovers a lot and the retouchers there have strict guidelines as to how to retouch images.

As to coming to his defense, I believe that I said that I just wish he would do something a little more to dispense with some of the real worlds misconceptions of retouching. If he was a little less mystical about what goes on with retouching in his interviews it probably could have helped stop the backlash that is happening. Not just in this article you pointed out but in others.

Annie by no means uses only him for her retouching, as do very few of his other clients.

Odd though that going back through some of his interviews over the years that Patrick and Annie seem to be mentioned the most, or are giving him credit for stuff.

What do you propose we do to help him out with defense? Or rather, defense of retouching. If you have read any of my blog posts you will have seen that I actually do a lot to alleviate what is being misinterpreted with retouching and perception of the media.

Still would love to know what you propose though.

BTW, I could not find the story from the link you supplied. Anything more direct?

Chris

Dutch Rich · #18 05-10-2008, 04:21 PM

Even though you might not be stoked, the general emotion his name invokes here in NY is one of envy. Many great photogs I've worked mentioned wishing his downfall to me. I've not only reworked box's stuff but directly competed with him on many luxury campaigns. For more realistic results they came to me and the sleek stuff went to them. In essence the high-end retouching industry is not very large.

I completely understand his reason for being mystical. When I used to work on a Scitex my clients never told me which tool to use to accomplish a certain result. But with everyone owning a Mac and Photoshop it will only be a matter of time before everyone claims to be a master retoucher. Go ask the grand chef for his recipe and see how he will react.

Annie and Patrick mentioning his name only means that they're confident and have a certain old school loyalty.

Now I've started a newsletter to reflect my opinion, some history and these type of conversations to educate my direct network. My neighbor who's a photog mentioned having an actual forum in her studio. Get some retouchers, photographers and maybe someone from the artist guild to mediate. And I did notice your positive contribution, and appreciate it.

You mentioned that your PR skillz are deficient, and so are mine. Obviously we're all a bunch of a-social fruitcakes for choosing to spend 8 to 16 hours a day surrounded by humming CPU's. I just came from a framing shop that's mounting my portfolio on mattboard, and the guy says have you ever thought about doing a show with the before afters. I said sure but it would be too delicate. So he brings up the daily news article and we spent half an hour talking about why we are kept under the radar. Then he says, why don't you get a PR person. You see were I'm heading with this.
We don't have agents, and since we don't work for large boutiques anymore we don't have sales people to buffer and protect our interests.

Yet here we are donating tips of the trade that took years to develop to not retouchers but photographers who don't want to give up any credit but would love to know how to do beautiful skin so they don't need you or me or Ant and Benny anymore. Great!!
I am starting to sound bitter, but I'd rather teach a talented art student my tricks so I can groom him and give him a job.

R

cricket1961 · #19 05-10-2008, 04:22 PM

Found it on the home site Rich.

Its funny that the rebuttal article actually applies his comment to the wrong campaign by Dove.

Quote: :I mentioned the Dove ad campaign that proudly featured lumpier-than-usual “real women” in their undergarments. It turned out that it was a Dangin job. “Do you know how much retouching was on that?” he asked. “But it was great to do, a challenge, to keep everyone’s skin and faces showing the mileage but not looking unattractive.”

His remark was about the larger people ad, not the aging ad.

I wonder how many people would agree with Annie's comment that Pascal is primarily a printer.

Quote: ""Let's be perfectly clear," Leibovitz said in the statement. "Pascal does all kinds of work, but he is primarily a printer, and only does retouching when asked."

So my question now is, is he really doing that much retouching anymore? Or is the work of Box studio only being automatically attributed to Pascal. I have certainly seen this scenario before so it is possible.

Has he stepped out of doing so much retouching and only handles the occasional large campaign that gets some sort of limelight.

Chris

Dutch Rich · #20 05-10-2008, 04:44 PM

I think that he is somewhat a producer of images. Directing his staff towards the results he seeks for client and self satisfaction.

He is very known for his color treatment so there's some truth to Annie's statement of him being a printer. Excellent photographers can make those claims. Most others can't. Sometimes, in my case, I am the insurance for when a shoot goes miserably wrong.

I just want to know how he feels about being so called reprimanded in the press.

ktg222 · #21 05-10-2008, 06:38 PM

Referencing the Daily article: It probably is not the attention he would want to have. Annie's response is no compliment I would think.

"Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall".

k

Benny Profane · #22 05-10-2008, 06:56 PM

Somebody please direct me to this article. What a weird site.

Dutch Rich · #23 05-10-2008, 07:10 PM

Multiple people having problems with that link. Here Google this:

daily news larry mcshane snap! &

Benny Profane · #24 05-10-2008, 07:18 PM

Oh boy, this is going to be interesting. Betcha there's a lot of cell phones being shouted into all weekend in NYC. Annie doesn't want the world to know that she's no longer shooting full frame Tri-X or Ektachrome through a Nikon F anymore. Somebody get ready to land her work, although I heard just yesterday that she's a little late with payments...........

ktg222 · #25 05-10-2008, 08:24 PM

Benny,

Have you seen the video of the session with the Queen & Annie? It looked like she was shooting a Canon mk II 1ds. Those images appeared to be retouched. Color and background. I think you can find it on YouTube.

k

OperaFan1981 · #26 05-10-2008, 08:32 PM

Mr. Tarantino,

I am a fan of your and Ms. Amy Dresser. =)

OperaFan1981 · #27 05-10-2008, 08:35 PM

Rich,

Your portfolio is rad too. I've visited your website and good grief! Awesome retouching. =)

--Ron

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Rich

I think that he is somewhat a producer of images. Directing his staff towards the results he seeks for client and self satisfaction.

He is very known for his color treatment so there's some truth to Annie's statement of him being a printer. Excellent photographers can make those claims. Most others can't. Sometimes, in my case, I am the insurance for when a shoot goes miserably wrong.

I just want to know how he feels about being so called reprimanded in the press.

Benny Profane · #28 05-10-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktg222

Benny,

Have you seen the video of the session with the Queen & Annie? It looked like she was shooting a Canon mk II 1ds. Those images appeared to be retouched. Color and background. I think you can find it on YouTube.

k

Hey, you know and I know what the modern tools are. But what I'm saying is that some photographers want the world to think that what's exposed is what the world sees. Think about it - has Annie ever talked about her retouching much, or even at all? This is all very threatening to them, yet, at the same time, separates them from the past. Real devil's bargain.

krisdaloo · #29 05-10-2008, 09:44 PM

I can completely understand the advantage to be able to sell yourself... and the fact that someone who can talk a great game, but might not have the same ability, might get the work...

maybe I'm misinterpreting... but why worry about any misconceptions about retouching? I assume we're referring to the general public, correct?

Anyone that you might get work from has an understanding of how important this stage is. I doubt that there is a single thing that could convince someone in the industry (any industry involving retouching) to think otherwise.

Anyone that has a misconception, whether it's that retouching contributes to a false sense of perfection, or I don't know, whatever it is... I'm not sure how to finish this thought, but I like to think that in general, our work should be unnoticed, and I guess I'm saying we should be as well... That's not to say you shouldn't be recognized for your work, you will be, but within your industry... The target audience is not your target audience.

zganie · #30 05-11-2008, 04:30 AM

I do not think retouching is unethical,commercially that is your selling a Product,and the people of that product want it to look its best.That said:I think there are a lot of sloppy photographers out ther that do not learn there craft.Think its not so?Think about this wedding photographers shooting 3000 photos (or more) do you think when film was used they were doing that,think of the cost.Thats just one example and I know there are many more.The other problem is Restoration people are not restoring photos I have brougth this up before changing backgrounds making people look younger etc... Sorry NOT RESTORATION thats why some of the Photographers I talked with have a problem with people touching there photos