D&B doesn't work ?

[jaroslav]

Hi

I tried retouch photo with d&b but I get nothing :/

On the 1st step i created new layer with 50 % gray ( blend mode : soft light )

2nd step I started to paint with low opaticy bursh on the layer ( white colour for dark areas , black for light areas )

This asciton lighten a bit dark areas , and darken light areas but didn't delete any skin detalies/

[Hendrik]

No, you have to zoom in and almost at pixel level brushing the dark and light pixels. There is a reason that for most photographers and retouchers smoothing the skin is a much better option. It takes A LOT of time getting the desired effect. A smooth skin only takes a fraction of the time and is suitable for 90% of printed art.

Are you working for Vogue magazine? If not, maybe blurring the skin is a good alternative for your client or try the degrunge technique (see tutorials on this board). I like this effect also.

[jaroslav]

I'm not working as a retoucher. When I'll learn d&b well - then try get traineeship on fashion magazine as a retoucher / dtp operator

[Mike Kalcevic]

The only instances I'm doing a D&B soft light layer is for head shots, or where skin detail is very aparent. Otherwise, there are easier methods for making the skin look good. For example, if you print a full length portrait on a 9x12, it is highly unlikely that you'll be able to see pore detail.

[digitalcanvas73]

Set your brush opacity to 100%, flow to 2%. and hardness around 10%.
Zoom your image to atleast 500%. Paint with several small strokes.
Hope this helps.

ROY.

[namphoto]

wow.. do NOT zoom into 500% unless you know someone who in real life can zoom their eyes in 500%, going past 100% is almost unnecessary, because looking at a photo from such close distance never looks the same way as it would from half this distance or so. It also does make a difference what size the image is.. but generally I dont go past the 100% mark-there are always exception-because you want to edit out some acne but you have to look at it in relation to the area around it, not the next four pixels around it..

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by namphoto

wow.. do NOT zoom into 500% unless you know someone who in real life can zoom their eyes in 500%, going past 100% is almost unnecessary, because looking at a photo from such close distance never looks the same way as it would from half this distance or so. It also does make a difference what size the image is.. but generally I dont go past the 100% mark-there are always exception-because you want to edit out some acne but you have to look at it in relation to the area around it, not the next four pixels around it..

No, this is a generalization you're making. Zooming beyond 100% can be necesarry for people who are not working on 35MP images. 100% can be too far away to comfortably target the skin problems. I ofen D&B on 200-400%, sometimes even a bit more on a 11MP image. I agree, people don't have 400% zoom eyes, but it's all about a good blend and D&B the pixels you need to change, not the ones surrounding those.

The TS must understand there are many recipices and building experience is the best way to choose the best method for your specific needs. For example, the 50% soft-layer method is for me not the best method, I prefer to work with seperate layers and adjustment curves.

Also, already stated, it's not always needed to get perfect skin. For most uses, smoothing is a faster and better approuch. Working on one image for 8 hours is NOT productive for most people.

[namphoto]

@Hendrik

better put, I just didn't like the previous generalization made before mine. all is well.

[Nanls]

Are you adding a new layer and then filling it with 50%?
Try this. On a mac (don't know PC and don't care lol) hold down your option key and then click "create a new layer" from your layer's pallet. A dialog box will pop up. Choose "Mode" and set to "Soft Light" then click on the box below "fill with Soft-light......(50% gray)" then you can use that layer to paint on (dodge and burn).
Hope this help!
~Nancy

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www.PhotoArt123.com

[chillin]

In a PC "Alt" key.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by namphoto

@Hendrik

better put, I just didn't like the previous generalization made before mine. all is well.

Ah, ok I see it now and understand.

[hubas]

In general i think that most skin problems can fixed with the heal and clone tool. Softening an images is almost always a bad move as you loose a lot of texture than can still be retained with heal and clone tool. Might work if the skin is already rather good.

Doodge and burn is a very good method but in my opinion to time consuming if the skin is not already very close to perfect or some one is willing to pay you by the hour for doing it

[Verywierd]

Assuming a good sharp high resolution portrait, I really don't understand how D&B alone can clean up the skin if there is significant scarring, pimples etc. Even when you have removed the tonal differences, the "repaired" spots will not have the same geometric pattern as the rest of the skin, let alone the tiny hairs, shadows of the hairs, subdermal blood vessel tone, pore pattern etc. If in the end you still need to resort to the clone and heal tools, then why do people go on an on about how D&B is the only "real" way to retouch?

[madclark]

Well I'm a total D&B convert now, previously advocating heal and cloning techniques to clean up skin. It IS very time consuming. I'll be the first to admit that, no matter how skilled at it you are. However, I've never had the control I can achieve with the D&B technique that I can with heal and clone. You can create literally flawless skin without faking anything in the original image.

I've included a close up of a recent project to show what you can achieve. Only thing to note is I added a surface blur layer over the D&B at a low opacity to soften the effect some.

There is no other technique that can so accurately fix skin like D&B though.

[Markzebra]

"It IS very time consuming. I'll be the first to admit that, no matter how skilled at it you are" - thats not really true if you a REALLY good it can be done to some standard quite quickly - but this depends on how its done and what method you use. I've seen people who have gotten so good at this - what I think is the faster people tend to use pressure sensitivity with Wacom - you can learn with practice to do a lot of intricate subtle work quite quickly. By quickly I mean hours rather than days.

And its not always the way to do it, depends on the type of image - sometimes cloning will do it if the shot is bad enough. Blurring really NEVER works because it not only destroys texture but also smooths tonal transitions, by this I mean where highlights and shadows fall, in response to light hitting the surface.

[HughSteenk]

Markzebra is one of the few people here, most definitely in this thread, that has a clue. Everyone else listen to him and disregard your lack of experience and knowledge.

Stop talking about what you don't understand. It's amazing to me the amount of crap you people spew to each other and how it feeds all the misinformation. you are all part of the problem.

[madclark]

Well I'm sure there are some long-time tablet users that take little time at all, but in a detailed high-res headshot the different amount of time and quality between some blurred and texturized mask layers, which take minutes, as opposed to D&B that might take hours is noticeable.

Or maybe I'm just a control freak. :-)

[Hendrik]

A lot of people are talking about the best or correct technique, but is seems they forget the most important question … what is the intended usage of the image.

It’s cool if you get perfect skin, but for a B&W advertisement in a newspaper, you don’t need the skin texture you want for a high-resolution print in a glossy magazine. In my opinion, a good retoucher knows what the image needs and what time he can invest before he even touches the image.

As I said before, blurring and destroying the skin is not a bad technique. Maybe it is for a high-fashion glossy magazine (although I have seen many pictures who got this treatment), but not always for other purposes. Burning people to the ground because they have retouched an image not following the golden rules is a bit snobbish. Giving suggestions and guidance seems to me a better way to point people in an alternative direction.

D&B the skin is not a holy rule, although some evangelists maybe try to convince you otherwise. It’s very time-consuming and not suitable for all retouchers. You need to know what your clients wants.

The healing brush is something miraculous. In my opinion, it’s plain stupid if you don’t use such a great tool. Many skin blemishes can be removed using this tool. The rest can be done with the D&B method or the clone tool. Sometimes, I still use the blur technique or the degrunge technique.

[madclark]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

A lot of people are talking about the best or correct technique, but is seems they forget the most important question … what is the intended usage of the image.
...
The healing brush is something miraculous. In my opinion, it’s plain stupid if you don’t use such a great tool. Many skin blemishes can be removed using this tool.

I completely agree that there are appropriate uses for both techniques and I regularly have a layer for both type of fixes. But I do recognize that because of the work I do, D&B makes the greatest effect. D&B makes it so easy to control the overall skin tone and goes beyond simple blemish fixes.

[pixelhunter]

This actually looks like cloning and/or healing.

Originally Posted by madclark

Well I'm a total D&B convert now, previously advocating heal and cloning techniques to clean up skin. It IS very time consuming. I'll be the first to admit that, no matter how skilled at it you are. However, I've never had the control I can achieve with the D&B technique that I can with heal and clone. You can create literally flawless skin without faking anything in the original image.

I've included a close up of a recent project to show what you can achieve. Only thing to note is I added a surface blur layer over the D&B at a low opacity to soften the effect some.

There is no other technique that can so accurately fix skin like D&B though.

[madclark]

I can assure you no healing/cloning was involved. Like I said, I did add a low-opacity layer on top with a surface blur and some noise to soften the effect but I really, truly used D&B otherwise. I love how perfect you can make things with it.

[cricket1961]

Hmm. I'll be the first to admit my love of the soft light technique. But aside from my hi-end work I do, it is more than acceptable to use other techniques depending on the end result of the image. No client wants to know that you spent a lot of time on an image that is needed for the National Inquirer(?). Unless they are not paying for all the extra time of course OR missing a deadline.
And there very well can be a bit of healing brush/stamp tool involved with a D&B image. There is always the issue of D&B leaving an area that was devoid of a skin "Texture" so it looks like an accidental hit with the blur tool.

Some images need the blur technique because the client wants that look. Can it be achieved with the soft light technique? absolutely. Takes a lot of time and patience and the ability to know what the underlying bone structure should be. It is very easy to create a break line in the skin if pushed to far or zoomed in to close to properly see where it needs to be done. Which is a good reason to have a second window open with a different zoom view.

And yes the healing brush is a great tool but it can leave some artifacts depending on the skin texture. But it has its place in retouching that shouldn't be ignored.

Chris

[Markzebra]

Healing and patch technology have their place, but I rarely use it on skin these days, it causes unnatural inconsistencies in texture. With this exception: Where there are areas which become soft and blurred after D&B because there was no texture to begin with there. Thats when its time to create texture.

[cricket1961]

Originally Posted by Markzebra

Where there are areas which become soft and blurred after D&B because there was no texture to begin with there. Thats when its time to create texture.

Agreed.
I believe I confirmed what you said earlier and what you have confirmed again.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Markzebra

...it causes unnatural inconsistencies in texture. ....

Yes, I agree with you and the previous posters, but ...

I think some retouchers (me included) have the urge to create something perfect, but forget they only do it for there own neurotic needs.

I just finished a series of 7 portraits. I used the D&B for the most part. I finished the series, re-finished the series and re-re-finished the images. Everytime I opened one of the images I noticed something not perfect in the skin, so I corrected the 'flaw' and had to redo all preperation steps for final output. The next time I opened the same image, I noticed something different I didn't saw before. I even had the thought calling my images back when I already delivered the images using e-mail, because I tested the RAR file and accidentally opened one of the images.

Maybe you can create something near perfect, but do you really think most end-users notice the subtle irregularly in the skin texture? Sometimes it's wise to step back and see if you are not becoming the Don Quichot.

[SteveB2005]

Yeah, I still don't get a good result yet from using D&B in retouching hi-rez fashion type images. I am teaching myself through tutorials here on the forums and other online sources. I am using a great high end fashion magazine GENLUX Magazine published in Los Angeles. This publication has outstanding photos of models with perfect skin and jewelry. You can tell just by looking at these images that a retoucher spent hours perfecting the retouching.

I also use a Wacom tablet as well. One thing that is important to get these high end retouching techniques down, is first being able to get some high end fashion images to work with. Unless you are in the industry already, these photos aren't easy to get, and nearly impossible if you don't have sources or an in somewhere.

Well anyway, I'm plugging along daily, hit and miss, as I'm sure many of us are who are trying to improve our skills. Most of my retouching gigs don't call for high end work like we see in print because most of my clients are just using images for websites, not going to press. Thanks for any help

steve

[amica999]

Steve, I made some progress setting the brush to soft light mode as well as the layer...maybe worth a try

[sirespen]

Originally Posted by amica999

Steve, I made some progress setting the brush to soft light mode as well as the layer...maybe worth a try

Am I understand this right? You use the brush set to softlight on a 50% grey layer also set to soft light? Why would you set the brush to soft light? What is the advantage?

Ciao Sebi

[amica999]

For me as a d&b novice I find it more gentle and with less saturation probs..just try for yourself

[sirespen]

Why you don't use a curve layer set to luminosity?