Skin color problem (nikon D80, CNX2, Photoshop)

[R_Leszczynski]

Hi there,

I'm shooting with Nikon D80 with 50mm f/1.4 lens. I've setup my camera to the Jason Odell recommendations (sharpening +2, Tone compensation -2, color mode II Adobe RGB, Saturation 0, Hue 0). Unfortunately the skin looks to red on all of my photos. I'm using 2xSB-28 for lighting and have my camera WB set to flash. For RAW conversions I'm using Capture NX 2 and then Photoshop for real retouching (both in PROPhoto RGB color space).

1. Anyone shooting D80 know how to adjust in camera settings to improve skin color?
2. Anyone using CNX 2 know what adjustment would be best for batch processing applied during import (the one I found is to bring down red channel curve but it's quite hard to find the sweet spot.
3. MOST IMPORTANT: I watched couple of DVDs about retouching (Chris Orwig, Lee Varis...) and as I've learned the correct CMYK ratio should by C 1/3-1/5 to MY and Y higher then M (lee Varis - about 10% higher). In my pictures I have bright skin areas where there is no cyan (exp. C-0, M-28, Y-30). Is it correct (Cyan at 0) cause when I start to bring it up the picture becomes terrible. I don't know if it's ok and I should work only with M and Y ratio or remove the red skin parts with Hue/Sat, or I have some serious problem with my camera when it comes to capturing right skin colors????

Please help cause I'd like to focus more on creative lighting, shooting and retouching and stop fighting with this TO MUCH RED NO CYAN problem.

[Verywierd]

You could try using a manual white balance setting and see what you get.

[pixelzombie]

why do you use the prophoto colorspace if the camera is set to adobe rgb?

[R_Leszczynski]

I've heard PROPhotoRGB is best photo editing. It has wider color gamut. For example Lightroom is set to work in PROPhotoRGB.

Actually I think it's not a question of white balance but the problem lies in the way my camera renders skin colors (thats what I think). Now It's a question how to adjust the camera to render the skin colors better or how to correct them as batch RAW adjustment in CNX 2.

The last think that bothers me is lack o cyan in the brightest parts of skin. Is it acceptable??

[Richard Quindry]

Shooting with my Nikon D2x I find the skin tones too ruddy for my taste. I prefer the skintones that I get when I shoot sRGB, Color Mode 1, I set the hue to +3.

Some individuals still come out too ruddy, so I set the eyedropper to read HSB and take reading of the skintones on neck or forehead. For most people I like a hue reading of around 21-27 depending on ehnicity. Caucasian skin - 21-23 for most people. I don't read the cheeks because they will usually run a hue of about 15. Then if I need to move the skintones more, I'll open a hue/sat layer , select reds in the menu and move the hue a little more to fine tune them to get the desired hue. If it effects other parts of the image that I don't want effected, I paint the effect away in a layer mask. I'm not great with calculating CMYK values - I much prefer HSB measurements as it's easier for me to visualize and measure.

[pixelzombie]

prophoto has a bigger colorspace than adobeRGB, but that doesn't mean it's a better working space...the lack of cyan is a big problem as that's where the "shape" is in a typical fleshtone...

[R_Leszczynski]

Thanks Pixelzombie. Our discussion about color profiles gave me an idea, and I've found solution for my no cyan problem. I had PROPhotoRGB set to my default working space in CNX 2 and unfortunately CNX discards embedded camera profile and applies PROPhotoRGB and that operation completely ruins my skin color on each picture that goes threw the software. Now I've changed my preference settings and all photos comes with camera color profile and I'm changing it manually in CNX. OK now a serious question: Should I edit my pictures in PROPhotoRGB or Adobe RGB???

[pixelzombie]

i don't know of any output devices that support such a large colorspace as prophoto, it doesn't make sense to work with colors that you won't be able to reproduce especially when a lot of photolabs want your images to be in the sRGB space(gasp)...

[R_Leszczynski]

Probably You're right. Wandering why some pro photographers recommend PROPhoroRGB workflow???

[mistermonday]

Print technology is constantly improving. In order to future proof yourself, work your images in the widest color space available and always keep that as your archive master. Then when sending copies out to print, create a copy whose color space has been converted to sRGB or the custom profile provided by the photo lab.
Regards, MM

[R_Leszczynski]

Thats what I heard. So the as I understand the right color management workflow should look like this:

Pictures comes from my camera (Nikon D80) in Nikon Adobe RGB color space (the widest possible in ma camera settings). Then in RAW software (CNX2) they are converted to PROPhotoRGB, processed, and saved as master NEFs (Nikon RAW files). Some of them worth additional retouching comes to PS as 16 bit PROPhotoRGB TIFFs. Affter they are retouched I save them also as 16 bit TIFF files in PROPhotoRGB and make additional copies for specific output (print, lab, web....) in correct output color profile (sRGB, CMYK or different).

Am I right????

[lazze_gurra]

Hi.
This is not an expert comment!

I thought that a raw image was just "raw"
and from a raw image it has to be converted into any choosen colorspace with the image processing program of your choice.

So I wonder how you can know
"Adobe RGB color space (the widest possible in ma camera settings)"

I guess that Adobe RGB is the widest colorspace your camera can produce if you choose jpg output.

*/Lazze

[jteague]

I shoot around 200 families a month. I use JTL monolights, 0 Sharpening, 0 Tone compensation, Adobe RGB, 0 Saturation, 0 Hue adjustment. I use CS3, and print on a Cannon IPF6100, with custom profiles for each paper I use.

[Elkhornsun]

JTL lights are a good value but not studio quality lights. You need to custom white balance for the actual color temp they are providing at any given f-stop setting (light output adjustment not camera f-stop) which is not likely to be 6500K or "daylight". If you need to balance for ambient light you can gel your lights. Makes more sense to start with a correct light WB than to fix it later either in your camera with hue adjustments or in editing.

I have not seen it with Nikon cameras, but with the Fuji S2 and the Canon 5D files I would always reduce saturation by at least 10% and sometimes 15% This in itself would help a great deal.

DSLR sensors and their output files which are all converted according to the companies' engineers idea of what is "correct" color and this varies widely, even model to model. More saturated output is common with consumer level DSLRs in the belief that the user is going to go straight from camera to printer.

[R_Leszczynski]

Thanks guys I'm sill trying to solve this issue. I'll write soon about the results. Bye for now, and thanks ones again.

[harkain]

Are you sure you are using your camera correctly to capture the images in the first place? Raising the ISO can produce odd discolorations in skin tones, especially in mixed light.

I know the D70 can produce horrible skin tones and maybe the D80 does as well. I've never had experience with either camera since they aren't quite pro cameras.

A RAW file is not an image. It is a collection of data, pretty much all the working data gathered by your sensor. Whatever software you choose to do your RAW conversion can make a big difference. Each RAW converter gives slightly difference results. You would think the Nikon software was the best for a Nikon camera, but I don't like it.

RAW files have no in-camera processing. Once you capture all the data within the dynamic range your current settings will allow, your camera will produce a jpg preview interpretation of that data. In the preview window you generally see an image of what you tried to capture. Color space is not an issue and neither are those image enhancement options in-camera. Usually the camera company's software will allow you to apply those same toy options later if you like.

You should do as much editing as a RAW as you can. The majority of changes will be non-destructive and you will not lose image data. Just about everything you do to a jpg causes math to be performed on the pixel data and runs the risk of reducing the quality of the image.

As far as final color space, save your RAW files and all your options are open. When converting to jpg, the color space can depend on what the image is for. For the internet, you want sRGB, although most browsers still ignore color profiles. For printing, the lab will have a color space they prefer. Our labs all use sRGB. ProPhoto has more colors than you can see or print and changing color profiles in a jpg can cause terrible color shifts sometimes. In books, you will read things like Adobe RGB is the way to go for printing, but no one told that to most of the pro labs.

If you are getting terrible skin tones at capture on portraits, I would get a new camera. The best camera I've seen for skin tones is the Fuji S5. It has a slow buffer and isn't suitable for sports photography. But it is great for portraits.

[weshoot]

Hi -
I guess I'll throw in my two-cents worth. I have both Nikon D80s and D300s. I am shooting Nikon RGB (same as Adobe RGB 1998) on all cameras. I leave the cameras on the A white balance for all my shooting. I shoot with studio strobes and/or daylight and/or mixed lighting. I try to shoot at the lowest ISO settings I can. I use a grey card or ExpoDisk in all my pro image sets, and use Nikon Capture NX2 to white balance the images. It usually gets the color right. I use the camera's default settings otherwise. You can also use the saturate/warmth in the color menu to adjust the images. I seem to get good skin tones when people are in the images.

Gary Silverstein
www.weshoot.com

[ray12]

This is going to injure some peoples brains... but I shoot my D-80 in the s-rgb color space to start with.

Think of this...what are my outputs? One is the standard color processing lab...call them up...they will tell you that their printing machines print pictures in the s-rgb color space...no matter what you send them... because that is what their print machines are capable of printing at this time. I live in NYC. The print machines around here are s-rgb based.

My next output is the Web. The web is set up and is standardized to reproduce the s-rgb color space natively in the browsers. If your images are anything except s-rgb...then your images will look different on the web than what you were thinking they should look like.

So, Guess what? I use s-rgb in Photoshop too!! Yes I know that Adobe RGB or ProPhoto produce larger color gamuts...so what? I cant print them or show them on the web and take any advantage of them in the end.

SO...to keep yourself from going crazy...Shoot in s-rgb...Photoshop in s-rgb...and let your pro quality print houses print your images in s-rgb because thats all they can do with todays technology...and post to the web and get predictable results.

PS> If you dont have a $2200-$5500 full gamut standardized color profiled monitor you wont be able to see all those pretty Pro colors perfectly as well...and if you dont have a $200 spider monitor color calibrator...then youre never, ever, going to get predictable consistent results anyway without it... because your monitor will have its own color cast and throw your print balance way off.

It might be that the original poster has a monitor that has a color cast to it...and when he photoshops it he is creating a file that will print totally opposite of his problem color. I work with a D-80 and I get great flesh tones. Keep everything s-rgb...and calibrate your monitor...and have a happy life!!

[Quantum3]

I have a friend who has a D80 (I have a D700) and I have never seen those problems with these cameras but certain illumination gives some redish tones to the skin. I personally like setting the camera without saturation (it feels more realistic to me). In-camera settings you can move the tint slider in order to achieve more perfect skin tones while shooting, but that option is not auto adaptable, meaning you should change that everytime you change your lighting settings. I preffer doing all the adjustments in the RAW Editor instead in the camera, and mostly because the camera screen is not so good like any other bigger display and the shown image is just a Jpeg and the histogram is based in that Jpeg file too.

About color profiles, better to use Adobe RGB 1998. Apple Cinema Display gamut beyond sRGB, so better the Adobe color profile. For printing, that will depend where you print. Photo shops just handle sRGB but other places can handle Adobe RGB 1998 and even at 16 bits (there is a new printer from Epson which prints at 16 bits Adobe RGB 1998 which uses HDR Inks).

About Capture NX... well... it's not so good like Lightroom for editing, but the fidelity is really good if you need to keep your pictures the same you do with your camera. If you're on Mac, Aperture is a good option, photos looks almost the same than in Capture NX isntead in Lightroom the color shiftng is much noticeable. The problem with Aperture is that destroys the dark tones if you try to fill light those areas.

[eikelben]

Originally Posted by ray12

So, Guess what? I use s-rgb in Photoshop too!! Yes I know that Adobe RGB or ProPhoto produce larger color gamuts...so what? I cant print them or show them on the web and take any advantage of them in the end.

SO...to keep yourself from going crazy...Shoot in s-rgb...Photoshop in s-rgb...and let your pro quality print houses print your images in s-rgb because thats all they can do with todays technology...and post to the web and get predictable results.

While this method may work well for yourself, it isn't a widely accepted POV and I might caution anyone following this workflow. Yes you are correct in your statements – your photolab will want it in a small color space as will the web. However edits in such a small working space leaves less room for adjustments. Further, your images will be locked into today's technology when keeping them open to future advancements is of no more difficulty. Bring your RAW files into a prophoto workspace and should you need to send to the web or your printer, export them in sRGB – easy as that.

[manta1900]

I suggest to download Auto White Balance from AphtoPhoto:

http://aphtophoto.50webs.com

And do a batch in PhotoShop. In 99.9% of the times will find the sweet spot for you (and it's free).

[ray12]

eikelben,

I hear you!

Color balance and color space choices are deeply held...almost a religious kind of belief (depending on where you are in your professional development... and your unique needs). So Yes...go with your Own Well Reasoned Flow. Im just mentioning the s-rgb route for those newcomers that want a thought process thats easy to understand... and easy to work with...and who dont want any hard to understand surprises.

On the other hand... If you "FORGET" to "Color Space Convert" from Adobe RGB or ProPhoto into s-RGB at the "very last step"... just before going out to the web... or some commercial printers...then... there is a good chance that your images will look "Darker and Muddier" than you expected.

I agree that some of the newer 6+ color ink printers are recently trying to expand their color gamuts by printing with so many different colors of ink. Printers that have several different shades of gray, or several magenta inks, or cyan or pure color ink... does improve the visual image over older machines with fewer colors of ink in it. But... these machines are quite expensive for the amateur hobbyist... and buying a new replacement set of special inks could cost you 100+ dollars for 25 to 40 images.

One more idea that I use all the time with the D80... to get skin colors that please me to no end. This is almost a closely held professionals secret if youre not into high end shooting.

I use a special color balancing device called the "ExpoDisk". You use this disk all the time for consistent skin tones across different sessions. It is a filter disk that goes over your lens. You use it to set a custom white balance for your camera. It produces a consistent gray image that you use to set your cameras own internal white balance with. Since each temperature of light causes a different cast in the images...this white balance filter equalizes "all color temperatures" or any mix of temperatures... into one consistent gray card image. This way, every lighting problem you have... gets "Balanced Out" at the lens...regardless of the light contamination in the scene. And now... ALL of your images will be Consistently and Accurately white balanced to begin with.

I especially use the "Warming Version" of this white balance filter to give me totally consistent, absolutely gorgeous, playboy looking skin tones from my Nikon D80. For me...it gives me consistent flesh tones that blows my socks off...compared to fiddling with my internal tone controls and by using a generic "flash" or "daylight" or "tungsten" color balance setting. (Auto color balance is the Worst). Who's to say that my mixed lighting on location... is really at that pre-set temperature anyway? Good-by Surprises. Hello Playboy.

Here is a video link that shows you Exactly HOW TO use the expo disk for professional white balances.

For Nikons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqIcEHz4AHY# Step by step guide to use.

For Canons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTcItRP9iGA Good Before and after showing muddy tone problem.

Cheers,

Ray12

[holgaman]

I think a good apart of your skin tone problems are a result of your using CNX to convert the RAW files. Normally (on all RAW converters except CNX) the camera tone and saturation settings would be ignored when converting a RAW file, but CNX uses those camera settings when displaying it's initial view of the file. Personally, I've never liked CNX for conversion, even with camera settings at default, but that's a personal preference. Also, I've never seen the flash white balance setting look good in any RAW converter.

If you want good, accurate skin tones (or any tones for that matter), follow these steps -
-Use ACR instead of CNX to convert RAW files
-Do a custom white balance in your camera with a gray card (or, better yet, Xrite Passport)
-Take a photo of the model holding the gray card or the Passport near their face, and use that to set white balance again during the conversion. Theoretically, there shouldn't be much change, it's just a stab at further refinement.

The reason the Passport is so nice is that it not only has a gray surface to set a custom white balance, it also has a range of colors to compare with what your screen is showing. And- the really good part- is that it comes with software to make a custom camera profile that can be used with ACR or Lightroom. This little thing costs around $100.00, but just think of the time you've already spent trying to correct those red skin tones. It takes about 30 seconds to set the custom white balance and do a test with the model holding the target. If you want to also make a camera profile, that's probably another 5 minutes, still a much better investment of your time.