retouch no blur or healing brush

[mileeeeeeenaaaa]

is it possible to get really good looking skin without using a healing brush or a blur and mask? like 'magazine makeup ad' skin? i mean, if the model didnt have very good skin to begin with, what would professionals do?

[DJSoulglo]

search the boards for "DODGE AND BURN" or "D&G"

Can't we just make a sticky post in all caps: "PERFECT SKIN HERE"?

at least half of all posts here are the exact same ones, people asking again and again the same question. No offense Mileeeeeeeenaaaa.

[ktg222]

DJ, should I get a Wacom tablet?

[Steve Payne]

Originally Posted by ktg222

DJ, should I get a Wacom tablet?

Absolutely, positively, 110% yes.

[Kayem]

Originally Posted by ktg222

DJ, should I get a Wacom tablet?

Picture this scenario:

I hand you a piece of paper and say "show me your best artwork."
"With what?" you ask.... "Only this bar of soap," I reply.

Now ask yourself if you should get a tablet

[Kayem]

Originally Posted by DJSoulglo

search the boards for "DODGE AND BURN" or "D&G"

DJSoulglo means "D&B"

The easiest and most effective method in my opinion, is D&B using a 50% gray layer set to Soft Light blending mode... I'd suggest researching this. You will find it to be pretty time consuming so I'd only recommend it if you are serious about retouching.

Best of luck mileeeeeeenaaaa!

[ktg222]

Elements 7 or CS4?

[DJSoulglo]

Microsoft Paint.

[0lBaldy]

For the OP... mileeeeeeenaaaa
Dodge&Burn Movie/Tutorial

Originally Posted by Kayem

Picture this scenario: I hand you a piece of paper and say "show me your best artwork."
"With what?" you ask.... "Only this bar of soap," I reply.
Now ask yourself if you should get a tablet

It might depend on how creative you are!
Don Marco was handed a box of Crayons!
- Mr. Crayola-part 1 (4min)

- Mr.Crayola - part2 (5min)

So it just might depend on your capabilities and knowledge of the tools at hand!

[dwallace29]

From someone who is completely new to this site. When you get the same questions over and over, generally, it is from someone new who is seeking help from those who are more knowledgeable. But nooooo, we get the smartass comments from those who are tired, old, bloated, those who have lost their..."cool". For those who extend the knowledge, I salute you. May the Puna buds from heaven watch over you.

[mileeeeeeenaaaa]

i have heard of the dodge and burn method, but quite frankly i dont think the results are very pleasing. i was simply searching for another method.

magazine ad models dont get 'perfect skin' from dodging and burning.
there must be another way.

[DJSoulglo]

Originally Posted by dwallace29

From someone who is completely new to this site. When you get the same questions over and over, generally, it is from someone new who is seeking help from those who are more knowledgeable. But nooooo, we get the smartass comments from those who are tired, old, bloated, those who have lost their..."cool". For those who extend the knowledge, I salute you. May the Puna buds from heaven watch over you.

Actually you'll find that I offered a solution: Make a sticky post at the top of the forum "PERFECT SKIN: NO BLUR" so that we don't get the same question over and over.

But thanks for being snoody!

[mileeeeeeenaaaa]

i actually thought u were being sarcastic.
but anyway
have you found the dodge and burn method to work well?
because from what i have heard of it, the results are extremely poor...

[0lBaldy]

Originally Posted by mileeeeeeenaaaa

magazine ad models dont get 'perfect skin' from dodging and burning.
there must be another way.

Very true , they get it from very talented MUA's (Make Up Artists)
Talented hair people and a complete team of professionals who make them look their best before a shoot... During the shoot the lighting and lenses must be correct and sometimes there are hundreds of photos taken for just a few usable frames and hopefully the photos used were captured in camera and might just need minor post processing..
Photoshop should not be the cure all for bad skin or bad photography... unless of course, you have deep pockets then all things may be possible..
Pre-shoot preparations are crucial for a good shoot, good skin and less post work..

If you study the threads here at RetouchPRO you will realize that a lot of the people who retouch those magazine models are members here and almost all of these Professionals use D & B.. If you like the results in the magazines then you are probably looking at D&B done by some of the members here..
There are a lot of lesser quality magazines on the market and also some photographers who will use whatever is the cheapest/fastest method that will give OK results for the indiscriminate reader... such as the action I provided in an earlier post.. (fast, simple, De-Grunge method)..
I guess it boils down to the members here needing to see what YOU consider perfect skin...

Perhaps you could provide a high quality, high resolution sample of what you consider to be the perfect skin, that is your objective, and then possibly the members here can guide you toward achieving the results you are after

[HuBBa]

Milena. You've heard that D&B results are extremely poor? Was that from someone trying it out through some internet tutorial, or someone who have worked with that method for years?

D&B requires a good ammount of artistic skill (or at least good wacom skills on the users behalf, and the key is to be very subtle. There are also several different methods to achieve this effect and it does NOT work everywhere (even with the different methods). It is however the most detailed way to retouch skin and you have 100% control over it. The drawback is that all this control and detail means it takes time to do so most people look for a quick solution.

As 0lBaldy mentioned the first step is to have a really kick-ass makeup-artist, and then also to light it soft to lessen the shadows in the skin texture itself (remember, harsh ligthing reflects even down to the skin-pores which are also catching highlights and shadows). Unfortunately the models are rarely bred for perfect skin, only perfect features so skinretouching even with a great mua is often a fact.

[mileeeeeeenaaaa]

so essentially, good skin on photoshop doesnt exist?
it needs to be great in the first place.

below is a link to a picture of what i think is perfect skin.
how would you achieve this look in photoshop?
or again
would it just be the photograph to begin with?

or would it be the doge and burn method?

give me some guidance, please..........

http://i36.tinypic.com/2iqeesy.jpg

http://tinypic.com/?t=postupload

[HuBBa]

first, start off with a model with good skin (if you can find one), then add a really good and thorough makeup artist. Add soft lighting to the face to smoothen and even out the skin further. Use a very sharp lens and camera with a high dynamic resolution (pref. mediumformat or high-end D3X/1Ds) and then start working skinpore by skinpore using say a softlight layer (either filled with 50% grey or not), brush at 3-5%, paint white to lighten the shadow part of the pore, paint black to darken the highlight. Use additional color layers to keep the skin-tone consistant (as it will change in the darker areas of the pore aswell as the highlights).

Sometimes you also graft in skin from reference files if you loose too much texture in that area, either due to the D&B or more likely from lack of detail in the original.

The key here is that it requires YOUR skill and eye to determine where to put in the D&B adjustments, colour changes and grafting. Thats why no plugin comes even close to reproduce this type of detail.

[jam1212]

If you have any huge blemishes that you want to get rid of, use the clone stamp tool. There's nothing unprofessional about using that. It takes skill and a good eye, but when done properly it is extremely effective. From there, D&B.

Chris Tarantino is often quick to point out that even with a great MUA, you'd be surprised how bad a model's skin can be when it reaches the post stage. Yet he still achieves incredibly professional results. I know for a fact that this is a result of lots of talent and a TON of D&B. Don't let anyone tell you D&B gets poor results, more often than not, that's simply a total lack of skill on the user's part. Just be willing to spend a few - probably several at the beginning - hours on it. There's a reason professional retouchers get paid what they do.

[ontwolf]

I donot know of a method where you don't use bluring or masking.
However I do use a non destructive method that I learnt from Mark Galor that I think works well

I use CS3 and the method is using the high pass filter'

1. you duplicate layer
2. set layer to "overlay mode"
3. click on high pass filter in filter menu.
4. set slider so colour is just showing thru grey in preview window. I usually use the lips or eyes as a guide. This preserves the wrinkles,nose,eyes and anything with texture in finished composite.
5. I Invert layer. Image---> Adjustments--->Invert
6. lower opacity until skin looks right to eye
7. make layer mask and paint with black over areas you don't want smoothed. (ie. eyes, mouth, hair, etc)

hope this helps
John

[tomasz.k]

Milena,
I totally agree with the others. D&B is and will be one of the most important retouching techniques especially when doing skin. As for the rest I think hubba sumorized the trick of perfect skin.

You ask weather you can retouch ugly skin to look perfect in photoshop. Of course but it takes as much proficiency as shooting that perfect picture, another words it is not just perfect technical skills, an eye for color and contrast and time, it is also talent.

We retouch celebrities, who are often far from perfect and in the end I would say they look quite natural and I can honestly say. We wouldn't have managed with even one of them without D&B!!!

After all it is a classical technique straight from analog and that is why it looks so natural.
I'm very curious: have you ever burned and dodged in a darkroom?

[BagLady]

Hello Milena,

You've received some excellent advice! D&B is the best method for 'perfect skin'. Other "smoothing" methods create perfectly fake skin. It all depends on the results that you'd like to achieve and the time that you'd like to spend on an image.

Poor results with D&B may only be achieved by someone that has no artistic talent.

[dwallace29]

Originally Posted by DJSoulglo

Actually you'll find that I offered a solution: Make a sticky post at the top of the forum "PERFECT SKIN: NO BLUR" so that we don't get the same question over and over.

But thanks for being snoody!

I WAS being sarcastic, and its snooty not snoody. Reading from a lot of very knowledgeable people, many, have different ways of attacking the same problem. What I am finding is, experienced photographers who begin doing serious retouching, change their own methods after their experience in the new arena grows. I am a completely different photographer than I was three years ago. I am sure this is the same for beginning retouchers. If you have been doing it for years, chances are you stick to your tried and true methods. I am trying to shorten my learning curve by seeking articles in periodicals, dvd tutorials, advice from those with more experience or whatever means available. So if you have knowledge of anything send me a message, let me know. I figure the more I practice the better I will get.

[igot2pman]

I think the spirit of this thread is more than D&B is the end all best way to do things. I believe that D&B is a very amazing technique and I too am trying to master it. But there are other ways to do things, some that may be better or quicker.

This is not the best example picture, but I did the below without the use of D&B, clone heal or other. I only used a +25 brightness and My "KA - blemish / tone fix shadow correction" action. All non destructive...Took about 10 min.

I just paint the effect in. There is no loss of texture that I can see. I believe that this technique is a great starting point, then finish things off with D&B. Hence, the last picture has a bit of D&B.

I also have to agree with OlBaldy, starting with good makeup and skin is a lot easier and better.

Another point,
-Keven

[0lBaldy]

Originally Posted by mileeeeeeenaaaa

so essentially, good skin on photoshop doesnt exist?
it needs to be great in the first place.

Not true at all... with Photoshop you can put lipstick on a pig and make it look good.

Let me try to make an analogy or comparison to something you stated you have a passion for... "Architectural Photography"...
A building won't move. So, you could use a high ISO setting and any handheld camera to take a picture of a building, the obvious thing to do is point the camera toward the center of the structure and snap away. However, this results in projecting the vertical exterior of the building onto the angled film surface. The lines of the building will converge toward the top of the frame. (which could be fixed in Post in Photoshop) A Professional Architectural Photographer will always have some means of controlling perspective on site.
A professional would use a view camera which would allow the camera to stay level with the ground then either shift the lens up or the film down. The film is now looking up at the building through the lens, but the film is still parallel to the building exterior so lines don't converge. Or, if they are traveling light they would use a "Shift Lens" which allows some control of the center line without changing the angle of the camera and messing up the perspective.
A professional would use the camera's lowest ISO (e.g., 32 - 100) for lowest digital/grain noise. They need a large depth of field so the viewer can look at any part of the structure and find it in sharp focus, which calls for a small aperture. A small aperture plus slow film speed implies a long shutter speed, too long for steady hand holding. Consequently, any serious architectural photographer will also carry a substantial tripod.
These professional tools and their use are what separate them from the average shooter... much like using D&B in Retouching separates the pros from average guys like me.

[Kayem]

Originally Posted by igot2pman

This is not the best example picture, but I did the below without the use of D&B, clone heal or other. I only used a +25 brightness and My "KA - blemish / tone fix shadow correction" action. All non destructive...Took about 10 min.

-Keven

Any chance you could post a "better" example?

I only ask because I am curious about the texture retention with this action. I realize you said there is no loss, but the example is soft and textureless to begin with... So I was hoping you could share an example that illustrates your claim.

TIA!

[igot2pman]

Sure Kayem,

It was hard to find a good image to work on, most of my images are far away and most large flickr images are blurry or already edited... the best I could find was one of my friend’s freckles... so I removed them. I started doing it by hand, but that was taking too long, so I select>> color range the freckle color and made a mask; then did some touchups by hand.

The only other editing was some sharpening before I did the action. Most of the freckles had little texture, but if you look at the left, I decreased the shadow without touching the detail. As for the "clame"... take it for for what it is... this isnt the best fix for everything, its just another way to take it. It may be better at certain things then others.

If this isn’t good enough, if you could post something or a crop and I will try my best.

-Keven

[0lBaldy]

For fair size samples to work with try lipstickfetish.org (where this picture came from) There are a lot of pictures there that you can work on..

Just did face.. maybe 45 min... (I'm Old N Slow!)

Patched the forehead and nose to get rid of the shine using skin from other areas.. then ran Kent Chrisiansen's "Skin Fix" a set of actions for smoothing skin. ..... Maurice Hamilton, Russell Brown and KentC methods rolled into one action found <here> Used "Paint Soft Skin" at default settings

Then regular clean up and enhancements..
No D&B Which is obvious to the concerning viewer.

I will let someone else provide a D&B sample because I suck at it and it is a long process for me (like days and days! And I always find something else that needs work so I never finish!)

[RokcetScientist]

Originally Posted by mileeeeeeenaaaa

from what i have heard of it, the results are extremely poor...

Why go by hearsay? Try it for yourself.

[igot2pman]

That is one ugly hot spot in the original... Its almost like photo nightmare...

Good job fixing that up OlBaldy. but anyway, thanks for the link, i'll check it out.

EDIT-

So I found one model with one or so blemish... So here it is... Its a 100% crop and only sharpened it B4 cleaning it.

-Keven

[Kayem]

Originally Posted by igot2pman

As for the "clame"... take it for for what it is... this isnt the best fix for everything, its just another way to take it. -Keven

I sense that you may have taken my post as me calling you out. If that is the case I apologize. I am a visual person (as I'm sure most of the members here are) and I was just looking for an example with more detail... definitely wasn't trying to challenge you.

I appreciate the second example and agree that the detail retention is pretty good

Thanks for sharing!
Kayem