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Beauty retouch psd

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  #81  
Old 10-07-2009, 05:35 PM
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Markzebra Markzebra is offline
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Re: Beauty retouch psd

By eye, and using experience, a good knowledge of Curves and masking techniques vapour - made possible because I have a properly calibrated monitor. The idea of having some set of predefined destination colors - is too much of straight jacket and just not going to work. It also misunderstands completely how color (hue) and TONE (exposure) relate to each other. I guess for the Robot Woman school it would be a good starting point though.
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  #82  
Old 10-07-2009, 07:29 PM
ShadowLight ShadowLight is offline
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Newbie Re: Beauty retouch psd

Markzebra generally I agree with what you say. with simply having different temperature light you get very different colours. yet generally things like that the colour should not change (only its luminance) when it goes from well lit skin to shadow should hold if you want a realistic look. (I may be wrong...?)

but I wanted to show you that no matter how calibrated your monitor is, the mind has its own WB

the attached image is just extreme case to show that situation
the middle x-element of both figures is gray (check if you don't believe me),
if it seems yellow or blue to your eyes that is result from your own "internal" wb correction.

Godmother, thanks again for sharing, learned a couple of new things
cheers
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File Type: jpg Image-24.jpg (66.4 KB, 71 views)
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  #83  
Old 10-08-2009, 07:04 AM
Quantum3 Quantum3 is offline
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Re: Beauty retouch psd

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Originally Posted by Markzebra View Post
Skin color charts are a huge waste of time, and pointless both in theory and practice. Any color is a composite of basic hue, luminance, reflected light, ambient light. Skin is also not completely opaque. We are also used to things such as film stock and developing/post affecting color. Of all of these factors, basic hue is the least important - so the idea that you can generate series of 'correct' numbers for skin tones is just complete nonsense. Light and conditions vary far too much for this - quite obviously I would have thought.

Its another case of many years of poor advice being presented as fact - from people with basic logic and conceptual problems like Lee Varis and Dan Margulis.
Numbers are not something absolute, but you can approach better to a desired result by using them. I think, after years of practice you don't need the numbers in order to obtain the right colors. However, the image of ShadowLight has lot of Magenta. How to probe it? Faith is not an option but the numbers. Numbers are numbers, taste is subjective. Imagine if you give some work to some retoucher and the retoucher send you an image where the skin tone looks off and you need that image with a correct skin tone, not the personal taste of the retoucher, what you will do next? You know much more than many people in this post Markzebra, you know what's considered a correct skin tone.
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  #84  
Old 10-08-2009, 08:09 AM
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Markzebra Markzebra is offline
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Re: Beauty retouch psd

Well I'm actually not pretending to be an expert on the finer points of this subject, where it relates to skin, there are people with more experience than myself in this specific area, like Chris, that could make more of a contribution here no doubt. I do know color though generally very well.

That image is a very good illustration of precisely what I was saying ShadowLight. The actual measured value of any color at a given point is fairly meaningless. Perception of color is only true relative to its surroundings. Anyone doubting should read the values of those central pixels on both crosses.
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  #85  
Old 10-08-2009, 08:24 AM
Quantum3 Quantum3 is offline
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Re: Beauty retouch psd

So, if the numbers are meaningless, what about working on an image that needs to be color corrected, and the photographer who hired the retoucher sees the image too magenta and asks for corrections on that, but for the retoucher, the colors are correct. How to explain that to the photographer is not through the numbers? I have had a problem with a photographer. The first one was about skin tones and I didn't know the thing about the numbers, so we ended in a no sense discussion. If I would know the thing with the numbers, I would be able to see who was right. I lost that job because of that. Of course, thanks to diplomacy and reasoning, we appologize each other after few months.
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  #86  
Old 10-08-2009, 09:40 AM
ShadowLight ShadowLight is offline
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Re: Beauty retouch psd

Markzebra... after all the images are meant to be seen by people and more or less what we see the others see, so that is all that matters.

too bad we can't see through other people's eyes to confirm it and everything is quite subjective. even when it comes to myself, I know I don't perceive colours exactly the same from one point in time to another.

at the moment I do see the left X-element completely gray as it is in reality, yet when the first time I looked at the image it appeared bluish (no change in ambient nor monitor calibration)

and the quick skin colour adjust I made here (especially compared to the original) looked fine when I did it, but the next day I did see there's some more magenta than I would have liked to have...

I am curious myself, besides experience if there's another way to do skin tones better.
I guess one way may be - correct scene to light temperature that you know the skin numbers, check/correct skin only, revert to original light temperature... I doubt though anyone does that in practice.
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  #87  
Old 10-08-2009, 10:24 AM
Quantum3 Quantum3 is offline
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Re: Beauty retouch psd

And don't forget that talking in terms of subjectivity, you may now see the magenta because all this discussion. There is where I consider the numbers being usefull.

About this "after all the images are meant to be seen by people and more or less what we see the others see, so that is all that matters". you cannot imagine how picky could be the guy who supervises the picture, and not only in terms of colors. I have a picture in my portfolio which have been seen by a great retoucher (www.shiftstudio.ca) and he told me that there were some magenta/green and cannot remember what's more, in the tear duct of the model and I really cannot see those things. If that guy were the supervisor of the picture I'm talking about I would be in troubles.
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  #88  
Old 10-08-2009, 12:21 PM
ShadowLight ShadowLight is offline
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Re: Beauty retouch psd

Just for sake of argument, go and check the portraits he has, and see how the skin numbers are... you'll probably find out that they do not comply to the numbers you have.

what customers/supervisors are picky is how things look, and if something does not look "right"...
and here experience counts

It's a bit off topic, but I'm curious about your picture you are talking about. can you show us?
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  #89  
Old 10-08-2009, 12:55 PM
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Markzebra Markzebra is offline
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Re: Beauty retouch psd

I've not seen that ShiftStudio site before - the source is very good in most of the images, the Photographers or at least RAW work is very sensitive to color, and doesn't need much 'help'.

Quote:
So, if the numbers are meaningless, what about working on an image that needs to be color corrected, and the photographer who hired the retoucher sees the image too magenta and asks for corrections on that, but for the retoucher, the colors are correct.
Didn't mean that the numbers themselves were meaningless. Yes there are fields of retouching where correcting 'by the numbers', or at least being able to is essential of course - and being able to understand this (how this works completely differently in RGB versus CMYK for example) is an important leaning process. There are certain tasks where for example working with curves, channel mixing - the numbers are essential. Not having been through this purely technical training at some point would be a handicap to anyone.

What I said was that a "measured value at a given point is meaningless" - when it comes to whether things look right or wrong, without taking into account its surroundings this is true.

What I'm trying to say is that where anything aesthetic is concerned it all comes down to judgment. And on any single image, there are different judgments and preferences that can be made. No right or wrong.
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  #90  
Old 10-08-2009, 01:21 PM
Quantum3 Quantum3 is offline
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Re: Beauty retouch psd

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Originally Posted by ShadowLight View Post
Just for sake of argument, go and check the portraits he has, and see how the skin numbers are... you'll probably find out that they do not comply to the numbers you have.

what customers/supervisors are picky is how things look, and if something does not look "right"...
and here experience counts

It's a bit off topic, but I'm curious about your picture you are talking about. can you show us?
Of course the whole thing should look right. I have been talking with Natalia about this this morning and she showed me some stuff where skin tones are not the "right" ones but those are the exceptions where the skin tone is not the priority or the main subject but how looks the whole thing.

Here is the image, a low res (but I fugured in bigger screens looks much bigger as well): http://quantum3studio.daportfolio.com/gallery/111332
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