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How to have the widest and the richest grayscale ?

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  #21  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:27 AM
Quantum3 Quantum3 is offline
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Re: How to have the widest and the richest graysca

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapperanton View Post
As a retoucher (Quantum3) you have to help educate the photographers.
Yes, I do that as far as the photographer is open to listen. Sometimes photographers don't listen or they think they're right. For example, since Canon released 5DMKII most photographers bought it because the picture size and you can tell them not to buy that camera because lot of reasons and examples found in the web and through experience and study and photographers will argue with lot of stuborness that that camera is great because X whatever said it. So many photographers are not open to listen, think and talk about a given topic. Same happens when talkin about dynamic range, bit of depth, histograms, and so on. Most photographers have not concerns about the technical stuff involved inside the camera and how it interacts with a given enviroment so even more impossible opening a talk about these things when the other party ignores lot of this technical stuff and even worst, when they're driven by their ego.

I'm always open to listen and to talk, but you know, sometimes people is too susceptible and they feel they're are being criticized instead helped, so this should be handled with care.

PS: I?m also a hobby photographer
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  #22  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:33 AM
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snook305 snook305 is offline
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Re: How to have the widest and the richest graysca

Shoot medium format digital backs with true 16 bit....

Snook
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  #23  
Old 11-11-2009, 11:44 PM
Andrew Lawrence Andrew Lawrence is offline
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Re: How to have the widest and the richest graysca

Yeah, I've seen some piezography prints and they looked great. Probably your best bet if your going to be printing them....

When using digital, a lot of people tend to think they can just "tweak" the exposure later in photoshop, so they get a little on the lazy side with their exposures.... but this isn't the case, and if you want a very high quality image I'd suggest making sure your exposure is spot on, and you might want to bracket to make sure if you're having any doubts about a shot.

Traditionally, as I understand it, (I would appreciate it if someone could correct me here if I'm wrong or inaccurate) the size of the actual sensor's individual pixels has a lot to do with what you're talking about in respects to DSLR vs. medium format backs.... So a really small point and shoot will have a smaller sensor size than your normal 35 mm frame, so in order to fit all of those 12 megapixels into that small area you have to fit in a bunch of smaller photosites, where as a larger sensor size allows for the same 12 megapixels to have larger photosites that have a larger capacity for more photons of light and therefore greater dynamic range.

The smaller the size of the individual photosites the camera has, the faster those photosite cavities will overflow with photons of light and blow out that pixel. The larger the cavity of the individual photosites, the more tonal range you will have.
So naturally, everything else held constant, a medium format back will have more dynamic range than a 35 mm DSLR with the same number of megapixels

Also take into the consideration of more expensive lenses and crazy quality all around.
All that said,
If you buy some decent glass for your DSLR, learn about exposure and post processing, and print your black and whites right, you'll have some amazing images....
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  #24  
Old 11-12-2009, 04:01 AM
Chaibolna Chaibolna is offline
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Re: How to have the widest and the richest graysca

HI guys

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  #25  
Old 11-12-2009, 05:11 AM
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Godmother Godmother is offline
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Re: How to have the widest and the richest graysca

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabrizio View Post
(I know, I know, shooting with a Hasselblad can help ;-)
Actually... the Hasselblad alone does very little for you. I've retouch some pretty crappy files shoot with a Hasselblad and some great files done with a medium format camera...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabrizio View Post
That has been heavily retouched. So if you want to get to that... learn how to retouch

x
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  #26  
Old 11-12-2009, 05:41 AM
insmac insmac is offline
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Re: How to have the widest and the richest graysca

Also look at the EXIF metadata. For what it says it wasn't even a fullframe dslr that took the picture.
Last but not least a heavy retouch done wrong may lower the quality of the print and a hires version of the image respectively.
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  #27  
Old 11-12-2009, 06:56 AM
Quantum3 Quantum3 is offline
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Thumbs up Re: How to have the widest and the richest graysca

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence View Post
Traditionally, as I understand it, (I would appreciate it if someone could correct me here if I'm wrong or inaccurate) the size of the actual sensor's individual pixels has a lot to do with what you're talking about in respects to DSLR vs. medium format backs.... So a really small point and shoot will have a smaller sensor size than your normal 35 mm frame, so in order to fit all of those 12 megapixels into that small area you have to fit in a bunch of smaller photosites, where as a larger sensor size allows for the same 12 megapixels to have larger photosites that have a larger capacity for more photons of light and therefore greater dynamic range.

The smaller the size of the individual photosites the camera has, the faster those photosite cavities will overflow with photons of light and blow out that pixel. The larger the cavity of the individual photosites, the more tonal range you will have.
So naturally, everything else held constant, a medium format back will have more dynamic range than a 35 mm DSLR with the same number of megapixels

Also take into the consideration of more expensive lenses and crazy quality all around.
All that said,
If you buy some decent glass for your DSLR, learn about exposure and post processing, and print your black and whites right, you'll have some amazing images....
Your technical information is right. Also, it explains why not a 5DMKII
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  #28  
Old 11-12-2009, 06:58 AM
Quantum3 Quantum3 is offline
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Re: How to have the widest and the richest graysca

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmother View Post
Actually... the Hasselblad alone does very little for you. I've retouch some pretty crappy files shoot with a Hasselblad and some great files done with a medium format camera...
100% agree.

Let me know one thing. How behaved the iMac for editing such big pic? Did you edited in 16 or 8 bit?
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  #29  
Old 11-12-2009, 08:00 AM
snapperanton snapperanton is offline
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Re: How to have the widest and the richest graysca

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum3 View Post
Most photographers have not concerns about the technical stuff involved inside the camera and how it interacts with a given enviroment so even more impossible opening a talk about these things when the other party ignores lot of this technical stuff and even worst, when they're driven by their ego
Yep, lots of egos, I worked as a freelance fashion assistant for many years in London and worked with many of them. The worlds best photographers (or at least the ones shooting all the campaigns) are either extremely technical OR they have very technical assistants saving their butts on the day.... leaving them to be flamboyant and wild!!

A photographer would be crazy not to take advice from a retoucher they respect.
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  #30  
Old 11-12-2009, 12:22 PM
Andrew Lawrence Andrew Lawrence is offline
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Re: How to have the widest and the richest graysca

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmother View Post
Actually... the Hasselblad alone does very little for you. I've retouch some pretty crappy files shoot with a Hasselblad and some great files done with a medium format camera...



That has been heavily retouched. So if you want to get to that... learn how to retouch

x
Yep, don't expect the camera you have to give you a drastically different result.... the only examples I can think where you would get a drastic result as a direct result of camera choice is if you use a view camera doing distortion movements or complicated focusing, or if you bought a holga or some cheap camera that has a lot of individualities.

If you go out and spend 30 grand on a camera, that RAW file is going to look pretty similar to your prosumer SLR as far as mood and feeling.... all of that needs to come in at post processing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum3 View Post
Yes, I do that as far as the photographer is open to listen. Sometimes photographers don't listen or they think they're right. For example, since Canon released 5DMKII most photographers bought it because the picture size and you can tell them not to buy that camera because lot of reasons and examples found in the web and through experience and study and photographers will argue with lot of stuborness that that camera is great because X whatever said it.
It's still surprising to me how many "technical" people don't understand how megapixels are actually a measurement of surface area. So a move from 10 megapixels to 20 megapixels is only a 25% increase in resolution size. These numbers are used to sell cameras to the customer. 20 sounds twice as big as 10, so people feel it's a huge increase.

I got into a discussion with a camera salesman who was trying to tell my friend that one camera will make pictures twice as big because it has twice as many pixels..... It was so funny when I explained it on paper for him and he couldn't figure it out because my math checked out with what I was saying but he still wanted to believe what was common knowledge to him, he invited over his manager and even he got confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum3 View Post
Your technical information is right. Also, it explains why not a 5DMKII
It would explain that someone shouldn't go purely off of megapixel count and trashing their 6 month old 20 megapixel digital back for a 21 megapixel SLR. But..... there is a but......

As technology advances, these sensors are getting better and better over time.... I've used an old 6 megapixel Phase One Lightphase back that is practically a dinosaur and I actually preferred the quality of my old 6 megapixel Canon Rebel. I'd be willing to bet that its smaller sensor would have greater dynamic range just because of technological advances between the lightphase in '98 to the canon in '03...

For larger prints, up-sampling my 6 megapixel files in camera RAW to 21 megapixels worked very well as long as you sharpened a little more in the RAW dialogue....

I have a 5D mark II now and can't be any happier with the quality for the price. I'd be willing to also bet again that my newer 5D ii might have more dynamic range than the older Leaf Valeo 22 or Phase One H25 from the earlier 2000s even though they have larger sensors.

Of course you should be renting the newest medium format back if you can depending on the job/budget.
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