Mastering Retouching DVD by Nick Saglimbeni.

[Cuervo79]

lol, I'll always have trouble to be polite to someone that uses marketing lingo like that....

[gamedonechanged]

Then I think you should work on your interaction skills.

[Cuervo79]

lol, not likely...

[Corey Jenkins]

Wow, I haven't been on Retouch Pro in a while.. I figured I would go on today because I'm home sick from school and would try to pick up a few new things on retouching. But seriously, every one seems pretty hostel now and I feel like I just wasted 10 minutes of my time lol'ing as I read through this.

On the other hand, I checked out the Mastering Retouching series website. I like the glow/glamorous look on all of the models. I think that suites my style of what I'm trying to do more than Natalias work. They both seem like good dvds, and actually I got high-end retouching techniques for x-mas last year. Which I thought was alright, even though it seemed like it left a few things out and the style of retouching was more normal, like what all the other dvd's and training videos seem to teach. I've taken a few courses in retouching, one with Carrie Beene at the photo expo in NYC. It was pretty awesome, not to cheap for a two hour seminar though and the things I learned gave me a look that was similar to what every one else was teaching.

Mastering retouching seems to be the best "glamor retouching" training series. There seems to be cheap or even free training on glamor retouching, but its seems like with the knowledge I have now I could figure out a better way of what they were doing. I feel I could still use the techniques I'd learn from mastering retouching on the girls I shoot even though I dont shoot many girls with little to no clothing on. It seems like each training video or seminar I go to I pick up 1 or 2 new things. I already have a work flow, and I dont plan on changing all of it at once. But I think learning a few new ways of improving it with the way a professional does something and trying new things out on your own is be the best way of staying fresh.


Those are my opinions on the training series. To answer the original question on which one is better I think its entirely up to what you want to achieve with your photography. It seems like there is a lot more informational on the retouching style by Natalia's work than there is with Nick's mastering retouching series. So I think paying a little more for the mastering retouching series is worth it to me just because its different and no one has covered that genre of retouching this good and professionally it seems like.

I plan on pre-ordering the series soon, hopefully as a late x-mas present. But even if that doesn't work out the price still doesn't seem that high for something this professional. (I'm still in high school too) Hopefully I will pick up a few new ideas on how to retouch that I can use in my workflow of retouching. I can let you guys know what I think about the series after I'm done watching it if you want.

I hope people can become more professional around here!

Corey
www.coreyjenkinsphoto.com

[Hogfather]

My goodness. Those were my thoughts on the Mastering Retouching (beta) series based on first hand experience. I disclosed how I came to know Nick: sought him out last year because his work is incredible. A few months ago, he asked me to be a beta tester. I have no financial ties to him in any way (other than a paying customer). When did it become a crime to have a high opinion of someone's skills? Yes, I am a fan. Yes, I paid with my own cold hard cash.

If I were looking at it, that is what I would be interested in as one of the factors in my decision. Of course another way of looking at it is that a positive review of a non-open source product must be an evil, deceptive, marketing conspiracy right?

Gamedonechanged: You are wise with your even handed, thoughtful approach. And you are not crazy to expect some professional demeanor.

Corey: I got High End Retouching last year too (actually just before I attended Nick's workshop)...good DVD too, good presentation, I don't regret the purchase...but I feel like Nick's is more compelling, more focused, and the Slickforce technique is something I'd never come across before.

The site's description is pretty detailed about its contents. But I'm probably biased because I've seen a lot of the actual content so it seems clear to me. I suspect that Nick isn't going to give away the golden goose for free...no matter how many unmannerly ad hominem attacks are lobbed by a vocal minority. (When does that approach work anyway?)

[Cuervo79]

Originally Posted by Hogfather

I suspect that Nick isn't going to give away the golden goose for free...no matter how many unmannerly ad hominem attacks are lobbed by a vocal minority. (When does that approach work anyway?)

As I said the beta testers don't write about anything concrete, I agree that disclosing a technique step by step would be shooting yourself in the foot, but there are other things I and others have pointed out that has not been answered. Which if I'm right devalues the actual product (in my eyes), and which is why it has not been answered by anyone...

I think the unique thing that happened here was that we all had our opinions (either negative or positive) and they where normal with no "heat" on them, but when the actual producer of the product and the beta tester came in is when everything went "lively". Specially since some of the people on the negative side either have been burned before or have had access to some of the retouching dvd's out there and found that most of them use marketing to attract sales, while giving pretty little.

This is the nature of the beast. There will always be two sides of the coin, and there will be heated opinions for and against, people will judge new things with the bias of experience. I say take the good and the bad with a grain of salt, and make your own mind. Because in the end its not the money of the yay or nay "sayer" its YOUR money that's going to be spent.

[HLP]

a couple of days ago, i figured out, that during the order procedure at slickforce store they add national taxes by international customers....

i dont understand why this american supplier add 19% german tax.....

[Corey Jenkins]

Thats strange, I've never bought any thing overseas or know how that stuff works but you might want to contact Nick about that or do some research as to why theres a tax. You could try and avoid it and get maybe a family member or some one you trust in the U.S to buy it for you and just use your email. Then you would get the link for the download when it comes out. Just an idea, hopefully the feds wont freak out lol

[HLP]

@Corey: i wrote two messages to Nick. But i didnt get an answer until now

[gamedonechanged]

Originally Posted by HLP

a couple of days ago, i figured out, that during the order procedure at slickforce store they add national taxes by international customers....

i dont understand why this american supplier add 19% german tax.....

Do you mean VAT? That's normal.

Originally Posted by HLP

@Corey: i wrote two messages to Nick. But i didnt get an answer until now

You will probably get a quicker response from him if you sign up on the slickforce forum and post/pm him there.

[Calvinhollywood]

Hi all

Interesting here:-)

I think we all have to respect the work of Nick.
Nobody have to buy the dvd.

I think the dvd was not done for people who are learning in forums and communitys.
Nick cant create new tools, nick cant create new techniques.

I am sure that every techniques was already done by someone.
But Nik can show his experience.
And words/experience can be more valuable then a tutorial.

- If you like to get techniques for retouchung the skin.....you will find the best tutorial here in this forum .
- If you like to get techniques for dodging and burning..... you will find the best tutorials here in this forum

Dont buy a dvd if you just like to see tutorials.
But buy a dvd if you like to see how other (pro´s) work.

You can trust me.... i saw more then 50 dvd tutorials and produced more then 5 dvd tutorials by myself.
If you do expect the wrong stuff.... you do not help the trainer by buying his dvd.

By the way.... i do not saw the dvd and i do not know Nick.
But who knows.... maybe i will buy the dvd one day... i am very interested in seeing other peoples techniques.
You can always learn new things.
And if i learn only ONE new thing from the complete dvd what helps me a lot.... it was a good deal.

English is not my native language... sorry for the grammar.

lg Calvin

[skydog]

If you go to nick's website you will find nick's forum...
http://www.slickforce.com/forums/sho...=1301#post1301
product still in development...nothing definitive...in beta mode...release March...maybe Nick is still doing marking research to determine what to include and how to sell the product? Alot of prehype..overwhat? Concepts? We are not talking about a final product. Mark III had a lot of prehype. Check Member list..corey is Gold..how surprising. Maybe gonedonechanged has become a promoter to get a better discount..who knows...I hope he likes the product and provides us a wonderful review. For myself, there is so much more I can do with $500. I could even put it toward 50 lessons on the forum with what I consider master retouchers. Right on Cuervo.

[Cuervo79]

lol.... as I said no one posted anything concrete here. Wow march shipping date... quite allot of time. I say that if you don't have the product ready to ship, don't advertise for it because its vapor ware, PCB got stung for doing this if the DVD's producer isn't careful he'll tarnish his cred.

Good luck to gamedonechanged. I don't think he's a promoter but I do believe he thinks he's going to get extra stuff that he can't find here that is why he's decided on the DVD.

[Hogfather]

I have seen about 4 hours of actual content...and it looked like final release quality to me. I'm sure he's still polishing parts though (c'mon...this is retouching right?) If I understand correctly, basically all the content is released end of this month via download.

[Nick Saglimbeni]

LOL See, I've been trying to be good on my word and stay OUT of this thread, since Natalia explained to me that advertising is not allowed, so I will only use this response to address a few questions that seem to remain:

While I understand that my beta-testers' comments cannot be unbiased, I hope you can see that they are in fact the only third-party sources of information at this time, so I would simply suggest that you consider them for their unique knowledge rather than assume they are all on my propaganda wagon.

@HLP: It's not me that's adding the VAT tax. That's a default addition from our merchant processor (not Slickforce) for sales originating from German IP addresses. Customers in other European countries have not had this problem, and we are looking into how to have Germany's VAT included in the price, rather than it being automatically added at checkout. I have no intention to charge Germans more.

@Cuervo: As far as shipping date, March 30 is only for the DVDs. The download, which contains identical content, is available Jan 30, and I don't miss deadlines. The DVDs may be ready earlier, but disc mastering, proofing and printing does take time. As Calvin so brilliantly inferred, the series is a culmination of tools and techniques I have used in my career (though I do stand by my belief that the Slickforce technique has not been taught before). While there are many techniques taught in this series, if you're referring to the actual Slickforce Technique, it is a combination of tools, layers, and brush strokes. It is not a one-touch filter of any sort, but becomes so intuitive with time that it is often faster than other comparable methods (and in my opinion, more believable). Furthermore, the scalability of the technique adds to its uniqueness.

In any case, I've been overwhelmed with customer responses via PM (both here at @ Slickforce forum) and e-mails from customers who are genuinely having a rough time in this economy. And I do realize that because this is a pre-order, you are taking a leap of faith by buying my series. Regardless of what side you are on, this economy is not the fault of photographers or retouchers. I've dropped the pre-order price to $299. Customers who have already purchased at the higher price will receive a credit for the difference. (NOTE: You may have to delete cookies and refresh your browser for the new price to appear)

Thanks for your invaluable feedback, support, criticism, and comments. They have all been extremely helpful.

[skydog]

Nick I've looked at your website and like your work...photos and retouching. I know you are very talented and you are doing an excellent job marketing your product. However, and this is my opinion only, I still feel your product is over priced for the market. For your sake, I hope I am wrong, but personally I would not spend $300 on a training video (I have in the past...with success and with disappointment) - the contents would have to be over the top. Most training videos I see are in the $79 to $199 range. Look at the marketing for this product below..I know nothing about them, just a site I recently came upon...selling secrets...nice marketing...more detail of the content...more examples...significantly lower price. So lets say I had $300 and I was comparing your product to this one there would have to be something very special about your product to chose over this one. Again, just my opinion.. the final answer will be revenue at the end of the year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpEwJzsFJ_g

http://www.photoshoptopsecret.com/

[gamedonechanged]

I downloaded that a while back, it's a great series although not really comparable to this other than I suppose the actual word 'secret'. That series is basically an end to end look for several projects, how they were done ect... In some cases (the most compelling ones) it's not even that(queue - and heres one I did earlier....) that but overall it's pretty decent.

I don't seem to see your argument, you are on one hand saying it's probably not really anything new to be unveiled and on the other you are saying it's overpriced when compared to other products in the same market. So by that rationale if it were $50 would you not mind spending money on it knowing you will still not be getting any new info? (assuming of course there isn't any new info)

I think the true answer will lie in feedback from users. I know a lot here think those beta testers that have posted are part of Nicks marketing bandwagon but at the end of the day anything you say is only based on assumption so until you actually see the content for itself it's all huff and puff moaning about a price.

And fyi no I was not given a big discount by Nick to say nice things.

[HLP]

.......message deleted.....

[Flashtones]

I think Nick has been pretty classy. The price was quite high. At $299 it's getting more manageable.

Obviously it's not for everyone. Maybe all his techniques can be assembled from free snippets across the internet (or not) but sometimes people are in a hurry to get on with their careers and want the info in a practical and easily digestible format.

Don't know about the rest of the country, but in my neck of the woods one university photoshop course costs around $500-600. You do get the interaction with an instructor, but I wouldn't assume them to be of Nick's caliber.

Game, I'm glad you're diving in so you can review this for the rest of us.

Nick, I hope your full release price will be affordable. I think you'd move a lot of these at $200 and with less hostility in the marketplace.

Be nice everyone, it's only Photoshop.

[gamedonechanged]

Originally Posted by Flashtones

I think Nick has been pretty classy. The price was quite high. At $299 it's getting more manageable.

Obviously it's not for everyone. Maybe all his techniques can be assembled from free snippets across the internet (or not) but sometimes people are in a hurry to get on with their careers and want the info in a practical and easily digestible format.

Don't know about the rest of the country, but in my neck of the woods one university photoshop course costs around $500-600. You do get the interaction with an instructor, but I wouldn't assume them to be of Nick's caliber.

Game, I'm glad you're diving in so you can review this for the rest of us.

Nick, I hope your full release price will be affordable. I think you'd move a lot of these at $200 and with less hostility in the marketplace.

Be nice everyone, it's only Photoshop.

Cheeky. But worth a try lol

[Flashtones]

Originally Posted by gamedonechanged

Cheeky. But worth a try lol

grin

Like all of us, I ultimately would love to know everything there is to know about PS and retouching. But truth be told, Glamor photography is not my specialty or primary concern. If it were I'd be more inclined to pay "whatever," to advance my career, but as a side interest I need to be more judicious with how I spend my money.

It's like anything else, the seller needs to decide how he wants to position himself in the marketplace. Some people will be attracted to a quality product at a high price and a certain level of exclusivity (think any luxury good), but if they lower the price, it broadens the market to many more potential buyers.

Personally, I've never wanted to compete at the bottom of the market with the cheapest price, so I understand completely if Nick wants to position himself at the top of the market.

One has to run some numbers and determine what price point best represents their brand, and how broad a market on wants to reach. I get it that Nick's techniques are applicable to any type of retouching, but the price is not applicable to any type of retoucher. He has to decide who he wants his market base to consist of (all working glamor pros and wannabees, vs anyone with a significant interest in retouching) and price accordingly.

I just speak for myself as a professional photographer with a significant interest in retouching, but someone who is not convinced this will advance my skills appreciably. $200 is a justifiable risk to me, $500+ is not.

But Nick seems like a good guy and a smart cat whichever way he goes.

[mistermonday]

Nick, I think Flashtones has articulated very well the question that many potential buyers are asking themselves: What is the Quid Pro Quo in your product offering and is it worth it?
I could purchase your product but will not consider purchasing it because the product information you have provided falls way way short of my expectations and probably most other potential buyers.
If you would like to see what I would consider the benchmark and world class (product info), check out the link below. It is a 7 hours of video training by Chris Orwig titled Photoshop CS4 Retouching: Fashion Photography which is offered on Lynda.com. The outline shows the content and run length of almost 100 videos covered in the 7 hours. You, and anyone else can select and view up to any 10 of those videos for free before the server will ask you to sign up. Chris has also produced a 20+ hour video series on Lynda.com titled Photoshop CS4 Retouching Essential Training. You can view the list of >100 topics and also view complete video samples. In other words you get a really good feel for what you are buying, the skill level it's aimed at, and have a good sense of whether you will get your money's worth.
For your information, a one month subscription to the entire Lynda.com 440,000 video library is only $25 and customers are only obligated to one month at a time. That means for $25 you can enjoy the 28 hours of Chris' training noted above.
David Cuerdon, has just released a Retouching DVD for $59. He is well known in the industry and is well acredited.
These are some of the competitive forces you are up against.
I do not expect that all of these retouching trainings should be under $100. I have purchased some that were more expensive and have attended live sessions that cost a lot more. I have no pre-judgement of your offering but I would definitely not consider buying it given the minimal product information you have provided. Here is the link -
http://www.lynda.com/home/DisplayCourse.aspx?lpk2=46312
I do wish you luck with your sales.
Regards, Murray

[gamedonechanged]

Thanks for the links MM. Although I just had a look at the David Cuerdon DVD and there doesn't seem to be any information at all other than a few paragraphs and a picture of the DVD cover.

[santoro80]

gamedonechanged: I found this link with samples and list of chapters (and their lenghts) from David Cuerdon's DVD: http://www.kelbytraining.com/player/index.html#149 (just basic stuff I think... but $59 is really a good price).

BTW, I just found this tutorials which are more interesting and are for free:
http://nienna1990.deviantart.com/journal/
You can learn how to retouch like this and you don't have to rob a bank: http://nienna1990.deviantart.com/gallery/

Anyway, I like Nick's work, but I would like to know more about his DVD. At least list of chapters of all the lessons and some before/after pics.

[mistermonday]

Hi Gamechanged, this link will take you to a chapter by chapter index of what is on the 3 hour DVD. There is a button to click to see an introduction and description by David Cuerdon. There are discounts available off the $69 list price. If you are a member of NAPP, the special membership price is $34.99
Here is the Kelby link I mentioned abobe.
http://www.kelbytraining.com/instruc...d-cuerdon.html
If you are interested in the National Association of Photoshop Professionals, you can visit www.photoshopuser.com
Regards, Murray

[Flashtones]

mistermonday, I'm seeing $54.99 for members. Is there a code to get it for less?

http://www.kelbytraining.com/product...ching-kit.html

[mistermonday]

Hi Flashtones, are you a registered member of NAPP? If you are, please send me a PM
Regards, Murray

[Flashtones]

Thanks, Murray. I'm not a member, but I'm thinking of joining if the discounts add up. Do you find it a good value?

[mistermonday]

Hi Flashtones. For members, there is a 15% discount on all Adobe products. There are discounts on all of the popular new releass of image editing s/w & plugins. For example Topaz recently offered it latest bundle (7 Topaz products) for a 60% discount to members. Same on training material etc. So in my case, the discounts more than recovered the membership fee. If you tend to buy this stuff, the ROI is very good.
The Photoshop User magazine, now available electronically (Zinio Reader) as well as in printed form, is full of good reading, keeps you up to date on new product releases and industry events and is $16.95 per copy on the newstand. For many people, the magazine alone is worth the membership cost.
3rd party s/w and service providers (print houses), hardware vendors, etc view the NAPP community as a great source for new customers and feedback on new products. As such they offer discounts to attract them.
For the beginner and intermediate Photoshopper, there is a rather substantial library of video and pdf tutorials.
There is a help desk to ask simple and complex PS questions and you will always recv a response.
The NAPP staff also put up a ton of info and video help as soon as the latest version of Photoshop is released.
Members can have exposure to people and events in the industry that they might not otherwise have.
"Should I be a NAPP member" is a question that comes up on many forums. Like everything else some people find value while others determine that they do not need the services, knowledge, or discounts.
You need to check out their site and feel free to ask the NAPP staff any questions. You should be able to get a good feel if the $99 membership is of value to you.
Regards, Murray

[Flashtones]

Thanks, MM, It's probably about time I give NAPP a shot, especially with updates to Photoshop and Lightroom around the corner.