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Can't D&B technique be greately simplified with...

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  #11  
Old 02-22-2010, 08:26 AM
Quantum3 Quantum3 is offline
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

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Originally Posted by TimeActor View Post
Hi quantum3 i´ve seen your homepage and your work looks realy good. Is it possible to talk about your "degrunge" technic?
I´ve never heard of that.
Yes (btw, it's not my technique).

Here is the tutorial: http://retouchpro.com/tutorials/?m=show&id=213 The part of "Quick" is the one you need. Then read this other article (a bit more harder, but easy at the end and more easy to understand than the not "Quick" part of the first tut): http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=439098
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  #12  
Old 02-22-2010, 09:47 AM
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mistermonday mistermonday is offline
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

The human eye is quite sensitive & perceptive to to very small differences in luminosity. Typically when you D&B in a micro localized area (for example a pore or section of a skin line and their surrounding / adjacent areas) , the difference in luminosity of 2/100 or 3/100 (I use LAB color L channel as a reference) makes all the difference to our perception whether or not we have produced a pleasing result for that specific tiny area. The problem with skin, is that it is not uniform at all. One pore or wrinkle line may need to be dodged higher 15/100 in luminosity, and another pore which is 10 pixels away might need to be dodged 6/100 higher. Most techniques using blurring, masks, degrunge, etc which work over "relatively larger" areas do not have precision to affect a particular small number of pixels without applying the same changes to adjacent pixels - and this is very noticeable. For some types of retouching this is acceptable but for high end beauty, it is most often not acceptable.
But I agree with Jason that the technology exists to help automate and speed up the process. I think Adobe could help at the PS code level by writing some tools specially targeted to speed up D&B.
For example, a brush setting in the Brush Tool option bar that would allow the user to set a threshold that would stop the flow when the pixels being dodged reached a luminosity which is = x/100 lower than the adjacent pixels. Ideally two settings, one for luminosity threshold, the other for radius of surrounding area. This would allow us to dodge a pore without having to brush over it 8 times at low Flow. It would save time by preventing us from over-dodging / over burning and having to switch to black brush to correct it. Another tool Adobe could give us would be the ability to generate masks which are derived from pixel(s) which differ in luminosity from adjacent pixel(s) by a certain value, the value being definable by the user. This would allow us to isolate all the dodge or burn targets that require luminance increase of "X". We could then use one setting of brush OP and Flow and do all those targets very rapidly.
A third tool Adobe could give us would be an on screen info window similar to the eyedroper info in the Info window. This would provide us with a better visual indication in our working area of the actual luminosity of the target and its surrounding area. Right now when we work on the layer mask we only get to see a luminance value of the mask we are working on and for D&B purposes that has little to no value.
I guess it may be time for a discussion with some Adobe developers.
Regards, Murray
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  #13  
Old 02-22-2010, 11:01 AM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

MisterMonday, I can't wait for you to do a video/tutorial/RetouchProLive event, as you have so much knowledge to share.

Couple of questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermonday View Post
For example, a brush setting in the Brush Tool option bar that would allow the user to set a threshold that would stop the flow when the pixels being dodged reached a luminosity which is = x/100 lower than the adjacent pixels. Ideally two settings, one for luminosity threshold, the other for radius of surrounding area. This would allow us to dodge a pore without having to brush over it 8 times at low Flow. It would save time by preventing us from over-dodging / over burning and having to switch to black brush to correct it.

How is this better/different than user adjustable curves to set threshold, and pen pressure to set opacity/flow/size on the fly?

Quote:
Another tool Adobe could give us would be the ability to generate masks which are derived from pixel(s) which differ in luminosity from adjacent pixel(s) by a certain value, the value being definable by the user. This would allow us to isolate all the dodge or burn targets that require luminance increase of "X". We could then use one setting of brush OP and Flow and do all those targets very rapidly.
How is this better/different than user created luminance masks derived from channels/selective color/calculations, etc?

I'm not challenging your ideas, just trying to wrap my head around them. Is it that the current means are mostly visually based and you feel that by taking a mathematical approach less visualization would need to be applied "on the fly"?

I'm wondering if some of this math isn't what's being used under the hood of a program like Imagenomic Portraiture, which does a pretty good global degrunge. But it's still global.
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  #14  
Old 02-22-2010, 01:52 PM
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gamedonechanged gamedonechanged is offline
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

btw if you are looking at the degrundge technique maybe it's better to look at the newer version of that in the high pass sucks thread over on MM.
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  #15  
Old 02-22-2010, 02:43 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

Flashtones, thanks, they are on my todo list, which at the moment is time challenged and in overflow mode. I am working on it.

Quote:
Couple of questions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermonday
For example, a brush setting in the Brush Tool option bar that would allow the user to set a threshold that would stop the flow when the pixels being dodged reached a luminosity which is = x/100 lower than the adjacent pixels. Ideally two settings, one for luminosity threshold, the other for radius of surrounding area. This would allow us to dodge a pore without having to brush over it 8 times at low Flow. It would save time by preventing us from over-dodging / over burning and having to switch to black brush to correct it.


How is this better/different than user adjustable curves to set threshold, and pen pressure to set opacity/flow/size on the fly?
Good question. In fact I have experimented with multiple threshold curves (see attachments) 1 and 2. There is no reason to use the conventional curved pinned to 0 and 255 with a big arc (above centre for dodge; below center for burn). Add a fixed number of points to the 0 point and the same number to the 255 point. For example if you add 10 points, this adjustment curve contrains every pixel in the image to a maximum luminosity increase to 10 pts. So you can start with 5 pts and add several curves with limits a 5, 10, 15. You can add a curve on top of the stack limiting to 1 or 2 points so the curve can act as a final fine tuning curve. Given you have a a range of opacity of 0-100 and a flow of 0-100 on each curve, you have a limitless range of very fine control. There are a great many variations to limit threshold curves including solid color layers set to variuos blend modes in RGB or in LAB color mode as nested smart objects within an RGB file. However, depending on how fancy you get, in the end there may not be sufficient time savings for the extra complexity. While you can set limits, you eye will not be able to easily tell which spots need to be dodged 6 points versus 3 etc. Without some intelligence behind the scenes, the process will be slow for us humans.
Now consider that you choose a spot to be dodged (like a pore). The pore is fairly dark with a luminosity of 51. The surounding skin is pretty uniform but its luminosity is 63. Ideally you want the pore to be somewhere between 59 and 61. Your brush OP is set to 15%; flow set to 15%. With that large a gap in luminosity to close, you either need to change the OP/Flow settings or use the lower settings and brush many more times over the pore. Your brain can do these calculations and assessments on the fly BUT at a very slow pace. Instead we are forced to close the gap visually as we watc our contrast layer.
Now imaging an additional option in the brush tool palette that allows you to set a "relative threshold". So you set your OP much higher, your flow at some medium rate. The relative threshold is set to stop the paint flowing when the luminosity of the pore / pixels being dodge hits a limit of 2 or 3 (59-61) bel0w the surounding skin (63). You can very quickly brush over a dodge target without 8 strokes and without worrying about going over. Same applies to burn. There is no reason I can see for PS to be able to do this. Right now we have to do it by sight, and trial and error. Lots of experience helps us in establishing how we set OP, Flow, and how much we brush. The contrast layer helps us with visualization, but I think we struggle much more than we should have too.


Quote:
Quote:
Another tool Adobe could give us would be the ability to generate masks which are derived from pixel(s) which differ in luminosity from adjacent pixel(s) by a certain value, the value being definable by the user. This would allow us to isolate all the dodge or burn targets that require luminance increase of "X". We could then use one setting of brush OP and Flow and do all those targets very rapidly.

How is this better/different than user created luminance masks derived from channels/selective color/calculations, etc?
Masking is one of the disciplines I spend zillions of hours on throughout my time in Photoshop. I have found some interesting and different methods of making masks including fine detail masks, pore masks, etc. I experiment on challenging images such as the ones posted by RP member Cuervo70 showing difficult skin retouch challenges (thanks to Cuervo79 for permission to display this image -attachment 3). Nothing seems to produce a mask that will permit appropriate isolation and transparency to properly doge/burn one area without to some extent adversely affecting another area in the image - usually blurring it or the equivalent of blurring it.
Now imagine if you were able to select / isolate all areas of an image where the pixels within some radius were separated from adjacent pixels which differred in luminosity value by = X/100 (or x/255). Then you could apply a dodge or burn or other change to an entire group of pixels across the image that were separated by a luminosity difference independent of absolute luminosity value . Effectively you would be dodging or burning in arrays where targets are equivalent in the amount by which they had to be dodged or burned. This would speed up the process exponentially. For most images, if you set one sampler in the info palette to LAB and just move the eyedropper it around the image and look at the L value only, you will see that the difference between the darkest spots you need to dodge and the lighter values to which you need to dodge them, typically all fall in a range of 0-20. Moreover within that range, there is a distribution of smaller ranges where most of the targets fall.

OK I will stop rambling now.
Regards, Murray
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Flashtones Screenshot 1.jpg (57.2 KB, 58 views)
File Type: jpg Flashtones Screenshot 2.jpg (175.4 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg Cuervo79 Orig.jpg (80.4 KB, 80 views)
File Type: jpg Cuervo79_MM_Bad_Skin_Mask.jpg (164.0 KB, 72 views)
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  #16  
Old 02-22-2010, 03:16 PM
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TimeActor TimeActor is offline
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum3 View Post
Yes (btw, it's not my technique).

Here is the tutorial: http://retouchpro.com/tutorials/?m=show&id=213 The part of "Quick" is the one you need. Then read this other article (a bit more harder, but easy at the end and more easy to understand than the not "Quick" part of the first tut): http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=439098

Thank you.
i read this and i´m knew this technic - but not the english name ;-)
I´m don´t using the hp filter.

regards
Martin
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  #17  
Old 02-22-2010, 03:59 PM
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gamedonechanged gamedonechanged is offline
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

Just need to read the first post. All the info is there.
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  #18  
Old 02-22-2010, 05:47 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermonday View Post
However, depending on how fancy you get, in the end there may not be sufficient time savings for the extra complexity. While you can set limits, you eye will not be able to easily tell which spots need to be dodged 6 points versus 3 etc. Without some intelligence behind the scenes, the process will be slow for us humans.
This was my concern in trying to set the variety of limits that would be needed on any given subject - that pre-thinking it and setting it up would be more cumbersome than traditional methods.

Quote:
Now consider that you choose a spot to be dodged (like a pore). The pore is fairly dark with a luminosity of 51. The surounding skin is pretty uniform but its luminosity is 63. Ideally you want the pore to be somewhere between 59 and 61. Your brush OP is set to 15%; flow set to 15%. With that large a gap in luminosity to close, you either need to change the OP/Flow settings or use the lower settings and brush many more times over the pore. Your brain can do these calculations and assessments on the fly BUT at a very slow pace.

Isn't this in large part ameliorated by setting your brush to a higher opacity (lets say 100%) and lower flow (lets say 1-3%). That way your top threshold is limited by the layer itself and you control in between levels on the fly via pressure/duration=flow.


Quote:
Now imaging an additional option in the brush tool palette that allows you to set a "relative threshold". So you set your OP much higher, your flow at some medium rate. The relative threshold is set to stop the paint flowing when the luminosity of the pore / pixels being dodge hits a limit of 2 or 3 (59-61) bel0w the surounding skin (63). You can very quickly brush over a dodge target without 8 strokes and without worrying about going over.
This sounds to me not too dissimilar from making a curve that raises lum 51 to 63, and setting brush opacity to ~90%.

Quote:
...imagine if you were able to select / isolate all areas of an image where the pixels within some radius were separated from adjacent pixels which differred in luminosity value by = X/100 (or x/255). Then you could apply a dodge or burn or other change to an entire group of pixels across the image that were separated by a luminosity difference independent of absolute luminosity value . Effectively you would be dodging or burning in arrays where targets are equivalent in the amount by which they had to be dodged or burned. This would speed up the process exponentially.
That does sound interesting.

Anyway, You're more versed in the traditional methods than me, so if you think these tools would help I believe you. I'll be looking to see what techniques you come up with in the meanwhile.
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  #19  
Old 02-22-2010, 06:28 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

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Originally Posted by Quantum3 View Post
Degrunge is the fast way to D&B, but be careful with this technique.
Interesting!

There are some minor similarities of what I want to achieve. But my approch has nothing to do with bluring, like the degrunge stuff.

It can be seen more like a highly specialized kind of "removing dirt and scratches" with the principles of dodge and burn (or lighten and darken) based on several analysis masks. But with more fine control over the entire processing.

The same technique also could be used to achieve complete contradiction: To emphasize all varieties of contrast differences. I.e. To make a skin looking just more structured (as long there is any structure information) whithout sharpen the picture in general.

And yes, the technique has to be used with care too and can't be applied on allover the picture and still has alot of manual/visual adjustments based on experiences and "trial & error".

I am still experimenting with it. Do not know whether it will be worth to publish a tutorial or not yet...
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  #20  
Old 02-22-2010, 06:35 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

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Originally Posted by mistermonday View Post
...But I agree with Jason that the technology exists to help automate and speed up the process. I think Adobe could help at the PS code level by writing some tools specially targeted to speed up D&B...
Murray, fantastic! Thats just the thing i thought also.
The math behind that even won't be that difficult at all.

I mean, if the D&B purists want to stick to nearly pixel based dodging and burning for hours, they still may continue to do so...
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