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Can't D&B technique be greately simplified with...

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  #21  
Old 02-22-2010, 06:46 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

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Originally Posted by mistermonday View Post
Masking is one of the disciplines I spend zillions of hours on throughout my time in Photoshop. I have found some interesting and different methods of making masks including fine detail masks, pore masks, etc...
Very interesting!
I am currenly also heavily experimenting/refining the mask generation for my idea. Because this is in fact the key of that all!

I am curretly trying to excessively use the highpass filter and shifting the values of such generated images to the area of masking. (That's just simple byte math *smile*)

However, I am currently not sure what to do with that color information inside those "bump maps" generated from the highpass filter ...

I also experimented many hours with the "Selective Color" Tool to generate masks. But that went into wrong direction for several reasons and generally was much too complex to master manually with precision...
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  #22  
Old 02-22-2010, 07:01 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

Finally I just want to point out, that such "D&B simplifying" won't make all "patchwork" superfluous. It's merely a nice challenge to discover something with new possibilities and techniques with a slightly different approach to good old and prooved things. Why not using the power of the CPU as much as even possible to automate always repeating tasks to give the freedom to concentrate on the workflow and thus speedup things drastically? For the retoucher time is money, right?
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  #23  
Old 02-22-2010, 07:05 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

Flashtones,
Quote:
Isn't this in large part ameliorated by setting your brush to a higher opacity (lets say 100%) and lower flow (lets say 1-3%). That way your top threshold is limited by the layer itself and you control in between levels on the fly via pressure/duration=flow.
OK, so you run into a pretty dark pore (L value=20 lower than the surrounding good skin color) and your OP=100. With the flow at 3% you will need to run the brush over the pore or wrinkle about 20 times before the target is dodged up to where you need it to be. This is fine but when you have a large number of these as well as a ton of dark lines, wrinkles, divets, and tiny depth anomalies, and all of these targets are at different luminosity levels, a single flow value will either not be convenient and / or the D&B process will take too many hours. This is where you need to assist the process with some automation, even if that automation is at the pixel level.

Quote:
This sounds to me not too dissimilar from making a curve that raises lum 51 to 63, and setting brush opacity to ~90%.
There is no problem making a curve that raises every 51 value to 63 BUT what do you do with all the oixels that were at 51 that you did not want modified AND what to you do with the other 500 - 100o targets that need to go from 47 to 52; 68-73; etc etc. Playing with the curves is not manageable in my opinion.

Regards, Murray

R
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  #24  
Old 02-22-2010, 08:15 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

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Originally Posted by _jason_ View Post
I mean, if the D&B purists want to stick to nearly pixel based dodging and burning for hours, they still may continue to do so...
I doubt that actual retouchers would shun a quicker way to do D&B. This isn't about being purist or not. It is about if someone can actually find a way to shorten the time of work and make it look realistic.
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  #25  
Old 02-22-2010, 08:30 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

Right, That's last but not least a somewhat philosophic question.
Porsche also has some serial production. But they still do to cars which are nearly made per hand in nearly every detail... *smile*.
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  #26  
Old 02-22-2010, 08:44 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

@mistermonday

Murray, you posted a really interesting Mask with one of you posts above.
I think this mask has too much contrast to be any useful.

In my opinion there is not enougth information (capured from the greytones in the mask) which could sucessfully be used to gain dodge or burn information for the correction. I think it is simply too hard (it's nearly black&white).

Generating such masks is indeed very challenging, it seems...
...and it, of course, depends on the usage uf such mask afterwards...
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  #27  
Old 02-22-2010, 09:43 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

@mistermonday

Murray, can I please use the picture (that eye from where you made your mask) to demonstrate the mask generation fom high pass filtering?

This would be very nice.
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  #28  
Old 02-22-2010, 10:39 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

Jason, actually what I posted was not intended to be a conventional mask. That one is solid black and white and was an experiment in dodging where the areas which are not being dodged are protected and another tool is used to do the dodging - not a brush. Also that mask should be inverted.
As for the image, it belongs to member Cuervo79 here at RP. He has been quite generous and I think he will not mind you using it. However, always ask permission so could you please send him a PM.
Thanks and regards, Murray
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  #29  
Old 02-22-2010, 11:00 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

Thank you. I did send him a PM.
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  #30  
Old 02-22-2010, 11:01 PM
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Re: Can't D&B technique be greately simplified wit

Jason,
In response to your original question -The question you're dealing with is very intriguing, but involves only the technical aspect of dodging and burning. That basically involves using the tools correctly, or as you suggest, teaching a computer to use the tools correctly. It would be wonderful if that was all that was involved. A professional level retouch requires many artistic choices (based on personal preferences, which are as numerous as there are retouch artists), including, but not limited to, the dodging and burning process. You just can't teach a computer do that. To make the problem even more complex, every face is different with it's own set of problems and solutions. Then, multiplying that complexity to the power of 10, you have to consider what the end use of the photo is - is it a model comp for an agency, a generic editorial publication, a fashion magazine cover, advertising, personal? Anyone can learn to dodge and burn (or maybe even program a computer to), but it's the learning where to and where not to D&B from one face to the next that separates the good work from the bad. As with photography in general, the photographer is expected to be familiar with his or her tools and know how to use them (a fully automated camera is not going to make anyone into a great photographer). It's how that knowledge and expertise with the tools is applied to achieve a certain artistic vision that makes one photographer more desirable over another for any given project.
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