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Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions?

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  #21  
Old 05-23-2010, 12:55 PM
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garibaldi garibaldi is offline
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Re: Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions

I totally forgot about this thread, I finally had figured out what my issue was, My eye one display 2 calibrator had gone bad and was creating faulty profiles which were causing my color issues
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  #22  
Old 05-23-2010, 03:50 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
The output device doesnít have to be as large as ProPhoto RGB (which will never happen for reasons we can discuss). The working space has to be large enough to contain colors you did capture and can output and today, Adobe RGB isnít large enough to do this job for many devices (sRGB way more so). See: http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdf...p_colspace.pdf
Welcome to retouch pro.

Your point is taken. If one has source material and output material that exceeds the capacity of aRGB they should use prophoto to contain it - no doubt.

But what do you say to my point: if your source or output material doesn't require such a large space it's counter productive to use it at such time, and the RAW/smart object workflow allows you to work the same file in different color spaces as your needs evolve?
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  #23  
Old 05-23-2010, 03:59 PM
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Re: Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions

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Originally Posted by Flashtones View Post
Welcome to retouch pro.
Thanks.

Quote:
But what do you say to my point: if your source or output material doesn't require such a large space it's counter productive to use it at such time, and the RAW/smart object workflow allows you to work the same file in different color spaces as your needs evolve?
Well I don’t know of many (if any) output devices other than a circa 1994 CRT that don’t exceed sRGB for one. This was discussed the other day on another site where a person who is supposedly the color expert at a lab said something like “all wet, sliver, LED/Light valve output devices don’t exceed sRGB” which isn’t the case.

True, if you work with a good raw converter, you can export and encode in any number of color spaces. But if you then do work on the rendered image in Photoshop, you burn those edits into that color space and going back is not a good option. Instead if you encode in a big space in high bit, like ProPhoto, then you can do your pixel editing, save that as your master and convert to any smaller color space you wish for whatever the need. You can’t go the other way. So I see little reason to render pixels in something smaller than ProPhoto even if I know the final output will be to something larger than sRGB.

In terms of sRGB being kind of useless for anything but web publishing, and illustrating that even 20th century wet processes exceed it, here’s the illustration I provided for this lab tech:

http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGB_vs_SilverPrinters.jpg

The red blob is sRGB, the colors you see outside it are the colors of the various printers which would clip if you used sRGB.
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  #24  
Old 05-23-2010, 04:41 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions

I get it about sRGB. I'm not exactly Dan Margulis advocating sRGB for everything, I'm simply advocating working in a space appropriate to your source and output. Do you recommend prophoto for web work? I could have sworn you were the guy giving the 'marker dots on a ballon' analogy as to why close tonal gradations might get stretched when a narrow source is edited in a wide space. Have you decided that in the end gamut always trumps tonality, even for artists who work with a subdued color pallet by choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post

True, if you work with a good raw converter, you can export and encode in any number of color spaces. But if you then do work on the rendered image in Photoshop, you burn those edits into that color space and going back is not a good option.
Then I'm mistaken about the way things work. Lets say I open a RAW image in Camera Raw and export it as an aRGB smart object to Photoshop, then add adjustment layers. Then I convert my file to prophoto, I reopen my BG smart object and resave to the same PS file as a ProPhoto smart object, what then is the gamut of my file, aRGB or ProPhoto?
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  #25  
Old 05-23-2010, 04:52 PM
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Re: Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions

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Originally Posted by Flashtones View Post
I'm not exactly Dan Margulis advocating sRGB for everything
Please tell me he isnít doing that!

Quote:
I'm simply advocating working in a space appropriate to your source and output.
There lies the problem for most. We donít know what the output will be. Or what we might use in 5 years. The history of output devices has shown they get wider and more capable as the years go on. So the best you can do is work with a big, honking space that can contain all the colors your capture device captured and archive that. The alternative is working with a smaller color space and you canít put that toothpaste back into the tube. When its gone, its gone.

Quote:
Do you recommend prophoto for web work?
Not while the vast majority of web browsers are not color managed. If they all behaved like Photoshop or Lightroom etc, you could. So you have to use the lowest common denominator which is sRGB. At least until the masses all move to wide gamut displays (thatís coming), then sRGB will look awful and youíll have to feed the browsers something like AdobeRGB. One would hope the people making web browsers would simply make the work with color images correctly like Safari and FireFox now do.

But you can have your cake and eat it. You work in ProPhoto as your master RGB space, then save off an iteration thatís a small JPEG in sRGB for the web.

Quote:
I could have sworn you were the guy giving the 'marker dots on a ballon' analogy as to why close tonal gradations might get stretched when a narrow source is edited in a wide space. Have you decided that in the end gamut always trumps tonality, even for artists who work with a subdued color pallet by choice.
Thatís all about bit depth. Your raw images and converter (or scanner) can operate in more than 8-bits per color. You want to use all those bits. With wider gamut spaces, they are more necessary because of the balloon analogy. No problem. Render out of the raw converter in high bit, ProPhoto, begin pixel editing and that is your master. You can convert to 8-bit sRGB (or something else), whenever the need arises.


Quote:
Lets say I open a RAW image in Camera Raw and export it as an aRGB smart object to Photoshop, then add adjustment layers.
Hold on. Its a SO right? In that case, all youíve done is embed the raw into the PSD file. You can call up ACR and alter the settings. At some point, youíll have to render the pixels (lets say when you do a flatten). At that point, the settings come into play. Now if you are still editing other pixel elements (not the raw) and that document isnít in ProPhoto, well that toothpaste is out of the tube. The raw will be rendered into that color space at some point.

So start in ProPhoto RGB 16-bit, add raws if you wish as SOís knowing that all the data will be in the widest gamut space possible.
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  #26  
Old 05-23-2010, 05:26 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post



There lies the problem for most. We donít know what the output will be. Or what we might use in 5 years. The history of output devices has shown they get wider and more capable as the years go on. So the best you can do is work with a big, honking space that can contain all the colors your capture device captured and archive that. The alternative is working with a smaller color space and you canít put that toothpaste back into the tube. When its gone, its gone.
I get it when you're constantly trying to push gamut to the limits, but what about in a subdued image? Would there be any disadvantage to working on an image like this in ProPhoto?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/patocar...-11397671@N00/


Quote:
Hold on. Its a SO right? In that case, all youíve done is embed the raw into the PSD file. You can call up ACR and alter the settings. At some point, youíll have to render the pixels (lets say when you do a flatten). At that point, the settings come into play. Now if you are still editing other pixel elements (not the raw) and that document isnít in ProPhoto, well that toothpaste is out of the tube. The raw will be rendered into that color space at some point.

So start in ProPhoto RGB 16-bit, add raws if you wish as SOís knowing that all the data will be in the widest gamut space possible.
I got you. Rendered layers are fixed, but the RAW and adjustment layers are flexible.
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  #27  
Old 05-23-2010, 06:00 PM
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Re: Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashtones View Post
I get it when you're constantly trying to push gamut to the limits, but what about in a subdued image? Would there be any disadvantage to working on an image like this in ProPhoto?
In high bit, not really because again, the small gamut data has plenty of data padding for such a subtle image. In a prefect world, if you knew the image fit easily in Adobe RGB (1998), you could encode using that space instead. In ACR, you can see this based on the Histogram (no saturation clipping based on the color space set in workflow options). In Lightroom you canít. So if you had a lot of mixed images, and you didnít want to examine every one, best to set everything to ProPhoto and move on. And FWIW, in a raw workflow IN Adobe raw converters, everything is processed in linear ProPhoto anyway.
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  #28  
Old 05-23-2010, 09:35 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions

Andrew, you're forcing me to reconsider my position and workflow.

Lemme ask you... say I'm working on a commercial job destined for the web: IOW, a final sRGB file is the ultimate goal for a given file. Lets also assume that the file contains colors that could potential easily exceed the sRGB space,like greens and cyans. How does it affect the final sRGB file if the colors are first stretched to the limits of aRGB vs being stretched to the limits of ProPhoto before the final conversion. Does one clip down to sRGB any better than the other?
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  #29  
Old 05-24-2010, 08:21 AM
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Re: Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions

Quote:
How does it affect the final sRGB file if the colors are first stretched to the limits of aRGB vs being stretched to the limits of ProPhoto before the final conversion.
I don’t know what you mean by stretching. There’s scene gamut. A gray card or a field of colorful flowers have a vast difference in scene color gamut despite the capture device.

There is the capture device. Technically it doesn’t have a fixed gamut. But modern digital capture devices can capture a very wide scene gamut (easily exceeding Adobe RGB (1998)). This is one reason why many raw converters use something like ProPhoto RGB as their processing color space. They want something big so they don’t clip colors.

IF the scene, capture device and raw processing color space exceeds sRGB, greens and cyans outside sRGB get clipped to the edge of the sRGB gamut (because today, by and large, all conversions from simple matrix profiles like sRGB, Adobe RGB (1998) etc use Relative Colorimetric intent).
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  #30  
Old 05-24-2010, 09:27 AM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Having issue with files in CS4 any suggestions

Andrew, thanks for your patience.

Just to be sure I understand... if I start with a colorful capture, rich in cyans and greens, and develop it to full saturation in both ProPhoto and aRGB, the two will convert identically to sRGB with RC rendering intent?
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