can you retouch with a mouse?

[gholmes1936]

My hands are quite shaky from a familial tremblor that comes on with age. Being 74 it has started with me. I wonder if it is to late for me to try one out. Could it possibly be beneficial to me. I don't work on this stuff 8 hours a day.

[Boneappetit]

Gunner, i believe the mouse is your number 1 enemy at this point. I guess a tablet makes one's life easier at any age. : )

[RetWannabe]

I am still fiddling with a mouse. I sometimes wonder how much faster I would be if I had a Wacom. Thinking of getting one, but afraid I'll have to spend all this time learning to use it when I have still so much else to learn about photoshop itself, and not enough time to learn it in. I think the mouse is killing my shoulders. With all the comments about time saving I am putting on my list even before a new tripod which I badly need.

[kav]

Hmm... someone revived this thread, and yet no one has commented on logistics of doing so that I can really see. If you're doing anything like this with a mouse, make sure any cursor acceleration is turned off completely, and adjust the mapping speed of the mouse to where it feels comfortable. This should be pretty low for optimal precision. Now try a few exercises. Draw a circle, triangle, square, and print your name on paper, then do the same in an image editing program using the mouse and compare your results. These are a pretty decent ballpark indication of how it will feel. If it's too difficult relative to doing it on paper then this is going to turn into a futile effort given that these are rudimentary actions.

[iop]

Just went through the forum a bit and wanted to add some words here.

I am very comfortable with my early 2008 MBP trackpad. yes, trackpad. I bought the computer and a mouse. never used the mouse though! I could make my paths nicely, retouch blemishes, adjust colors. just with the trackpad.

I also had a small A6 Sapphire tablet, nice blue and with glitter. just perfect for a girl
But I did not used it often.

But now, now I own an Intuos 4 medium and it is just great. Especially since I found out mora about dodge and burn.

[SEP Studios]

I use nothing but a regular old mouse.

Never tried a tablet, I'm sure I'd like it. But in answer to mattp's question: Yes, you absolutely can retouch with a mouse.

Scott

SEP Studios Retouching
http://www.retoucher.net

[ray12]

I have both. BUT is is totally acceptable to use a mouse as long as you use a lower painting opacity on your brushes...12% for the faces, 4% for shadow areas, 6% for applying makeup and maybe up to 30% brush opacity for fast work.

Its the fact that you have to go over and over the area 5 or 6 times with this low opacity technique that makes the technique work. No single mouse stroke makes much of an impact...but when combines with the close strokes of other passes...then the edges become soft, smooth, blended and not harsh.

Many professional retouchers here in NYC use a mouse all day.

Its up to your preferences in the end...im just saying that the high end pros have no issues with low opacity mousing.

Ray12
Retouch Trainer
Ray@GlamourRetouching.Com

[Mike Needham]

I have both but hate the tablet, I occasionally bust it out for a bit of D&B but in the main use the mouse for all other Photoshop uses.

[shift studio]

I skimmed this thread to find out more about the Bamboo tablets.
I've had a Intuos 2 and an Intuos 4 medium for the past couple of years.
I don't use the express keys (I tried but...), and I don't take full advantage of the 2048 levels of sensitivity.
My Intous 4 is acting up, not sure if its hardware or software - so I may be in the market for a new tablet. I'm curious if anyone is using the latest Bamboo tablets and what you think of them, especially compared to the Intuos line?

Thanks,
--Shift Studio.

Edit: I now see a thread dedicated to this question. Will post there.

[Adrianr]

I had to use a mouse again this morning for a couple of quick touch ups. What takes me 20 seconds with a Wacom must have taken me a good few minutes with a mouse. Felt so odd! Much more noise too, all that bleedin' clicking

Regarding the Intuos/Bamboo for me the difference is the pen. The Intuos range just feels much better to use for longer periods of time (IMO), and whilst I've never had to use a Bamboo for any great length of time (By which I'm talking years) I don't know how they stand the test of time. Intuos seem to go on indefinitely though, they're quite remarkable bits of kit.

[Flashtones]

I have an Intuos 4 at home, to replace my intuos 1. I use an Intuos 3 at work.

I actually prefer the 3 to the 4.

Really, for me, even the 1 was fine as far as sensitivity, etc, but it had a flimsy pen. The thicker pens of the 3 & 4 are much more comfortable for extended use.

Don't know the pens of the bamboo, only that a good one is worth paying more for. Added sensitivity was not worthwhile, however, for my usage.

[kav]

Originally Posted by SEP Studios

I use nothing but a regular old mouse.

Never tried a tablet, I'm sure I'd like it. But in answer to mattp's question: Yes, you absolutely can retouch with a mouse.

If you've never tried it, and I mean really tried it, not just played around a few minutes, it's completely different. With either you need an appropriate size, and it needs to be set up correctly. Mice can have mapping speeds adjusted and should feel smooth. With a tablet if you're using a small one to cover a 27" screen, it'll feel terrible. If you're using it with a reasonable mapping ratio, it can feel much more natural for people used to drawing on paper . I don't always use the pressure sensitivity because I've always had trouble calibrating it to my liking. The maximum pressure settings involve pressing it really hard for fine work. They keep adding further divisions, but it's tough for me to get it just right.

Originally Posted by ray12

Many professional retouchers here in NYC use a mouse all day.

Its up to your preferences in the end...im just saying that the high end pros have no issues with low opacity mousing.

You use some really high brush settings. The thing about a mouse is that it's a weird motion. It absolutely does not require lower painting opacities. You could use the same ones used with a pen if you set sensible mapping settings. Even like this I don't care for it. If it means you have to go over the same area many more times, then that's a terrible hit to efficiency.

Originally Posted by Flashtones

I have an Intuos 4 at home, to replace my intuos 1. I use an Intuos 3 at work.

I actually prefer the 3 to the 4.

Really, for me, even the 1 was fine as far as sensitivity, etc, but it had a flimsy pen. The thicker pens of the 3 & 4 are much more comfortable for extended use.

Don't know the pens of the bamboo, only that a good one is worth paying more for. Added sensitivity was not worthwhile, however, for my usage.

The pressure functions are difficult to set up really well. It can take some time. I agree with you that if you're using it a lot, a good pen helps a lot. The intuos line offers much larger tablets. In most shops focused on this kind of work the intuos 3 or 4 large is the most popular. The smaller ones are too jumpy. You move the pen a quarter inch and the cursor moves an inch with larger displays. That just sucks. I use a large and I taper down the screen area it is mapped to somewhat.

[DadanY]

my opinion it's better to use a tablet,mouse always slows me down

[AKMac]

I totally disagree with the idea that you need a big tablet. The physical size of the screen is irrelevant (apart from the fact that you are able to zoom in and out of an image while retouching, the viewing distance from the screen varies anyway) In my opinion/experience the most important consideration regarding the size of the tablet is that it should allow you to work comfortably. I personally prefer A5 set to full screen ratio. This allows me to work without unnecessary arm movement, very much using the same hand/wrist movements you would use in drawing on a sheet of A5 paper. The smaller tablet takes up less work surface space and is easily reorientated or used on your knee. It is easily packed for transporting and costs a lot less than the big ones.

[shift studio]

one thing that surprises me is that everyone says the tablet is (aways) mapped 1:1 to your entire display(s).
I've always used the Wacom Mapping/Mode preference set to 'Mouse', so where I set my pen down on the tablet is where I start working from ... much less arm movement this way, and I suppose another case for a smaller tablet (for a retoucher rather that a painter/drawer)

Just thought I'd point that out, not saying its good or bad.

--shift studio.

[kav]

Originally Posted by AKMac

This allows me to work without unnecessary arm movement, very much using the same hand/wrist movements you would use in drawing on a sheet of A5 paper. The smaller tablet takes up less work surface space and is easily reorientated or used on your knee. It is easily packed for transporting and costs a lot less than the big ones.

They are cheaper, but it's around a $200 difference between the small and large, and I use them many hours a day for years in between upgrades. Software, computer upgrades, and displays make that look like nothing. Using it on my knee would drive me mad. I don't move my arm as much as you'd think. If I'm drastically changing working area, I am panning it around to center the area I wish to work on. I wouldn't be able to use a small tablet stretched across a 24" screen. I'd have to go with mouse mode like shift studio posted, but I'd probably set my mapping lower than his.

Originally Posted by shift studio

one thing that surprises me is that everyone says the tablet is (aways) mapped 1:1 to your entire display(s).
I've always used the Wacom Mapping/Mode preference set to 'Mouse', so where I set my pen down on the tablet is where I start working from ... much less arm movement this way, and I suppose another case for a smaller tablet (for a retoucher rather that a painter/drawer)

Just thought I'd point that out, not saying its good or bad.

--shift studio.

It's one way to do it. I like to be able to do things by feel to a degree. Having movement on tablet too disjointed from movement on screen is just sooo annoying. Even if I'm zoomed in it just feels weird.

[AKMac]

Kav, Why would you need to go into mouse mode with a small tablet "stretched across a 24" screen"? I don't see why you would need to do that.

[kav]

Originally Posted by AKMac

Kav, Why would you need to go into mouse mode with a small tablet "stretched across a 24" screen"? I don't see why you would need to do that.

I can explain that. Say your screen is 24". Wider screens and larger sizes in general have basically become the norm if you're looking for quality display hardware. Anyway with a small tablet matched to one, a small movement of the wrist translates to a much greater movement on screen. I find it difficult to work when I need to translate my own movement to a small fraction of what will become the stroke size on screen.

I was saying the method of the other user (going to mouse mode) would work as a workaround there because you can manually control the mapping speed while still having the feel of a pen. This means you can get something closer to 1:1 mapping but you would have to pick up the pen quite a bit to navigate across a large portion of the screen.

Mice are really awkward for me. I have a method for testing out tablet/display combinations and settings. I use things that are exceptionally easy to write or draw on paper including a signature, printed words, drawing circles and other shapes, etc. If I feel the settings are pretty close to a comfortable match, I practice a bit of freehand drawing in photoshop. If these things don't feel natural to me, it messes with my efficiency in retouching to an unacceptable level. Budgets and stuff haven't been so great the past couple years, so efficiency is a massive concern for me. It has to feel right. Just zooming in doesn't totally fix the problem for me. I like to be able to gauge as much as possible by feel how much I'll need to move something. I click layers on and off every few minutes and make snapshots just to be sure it's going in the right direction. It's really detailed stuff.

[shift studio]

Originally Posted by kav

... but you would have to pick up the pen quite a bit to navigate across a large portion of the screen.
...

Not actually true - I have a 30" display and 23" display for a total width of 2560px+1920px = 4480px
I have the mouse 'Tracking Speed' set to just one stop closer to fast in OSX's Mouse system preference, and I move all the way across the 4480 px with the flick of my wrist - no picking up the pen at all.

I know everyone is gonna have there preference, but for me, I have no problem moving around 'blind' even if the mapping is disjointed.
and I love the non-1:1 freedom.

--shift studio.

[kav]

Originally Posted by shift studio

I have the mouse 'Tracking Speed' set to just one stop closer to fast in OSX's Mouse system preference, and I move all the way across the 4480 px with the flick of my wrist - no picking up the pen at all.

I couldn't work like that. I need the ability to move it over just a few pixels. When I went from a medium tablet to a larger one (years ago) and aggressively controlled the mapping, I found way fewer things that required correction in the work when doing the click on/off test on retouching layers. With loose mapping it was just too easy for me to go over my mark by a very small amount. Too many of these kinds of errors over the course of an image meant a lot of cleanup of the work. I can't say I'm not jealous that you're able to work that way.

[AKMac]

I still don't buy the concept that the distance of travel on the tablet must correspond to that seen on screen. Your brain does the translation without any fuss at all. This has been your experience since you first started to scribble as a child, and is the same brain/eye function as is used every moment of your waking life. For example - when I write with my eyes up close to the paper, the pencil and hand fill over 300% more of my visual field than when I write at arm's length. I don't need to make any conscious adaptation however - in both scenarios I know it is my hand writing - it is effectively the same experience, and my brain does all the work behind the scenes so efficiently that I am not even aware of how relatively large or small my hand appears in my visual field. The same principle applies to tablet and screen sizes. If you are comfortable with the physical feel and function of a tablet and pen setup then that's the right setup for you, irrespective of whether you are working with a 13" laptop or cinema display.

Regarding the choice of tablet - I personally go for a small one because it does everything I need it to do; uses up less valuable desk space; is easily movable and is less expensive. If I feel like getting away from my work desk for a while I can use it with my laptop in an easy chair. I have tried larger ones and found them unwieldy, bulky and physically hard work. I am fully aware that a lot of people prefer larger tablets and would probably find a small one restrictive - it's a matter of choice and what feels best.

[longside1]

I sometimes retouch with my finger on my laptop touch pad!