can you retouch with a mouse?

[mattp]

All,

Can pro quality photo re-touching be done with a mouse or would I need a tablet at some point?

Also, if you need a tablet, do you need to be able to draw proficiently or is it simple something most people can learn with practice?

Thanks
Matt

[4personnen]

Hi! As everyone I assume, I started with a mouse...but eventually bought a Wacom (it's second one now). I cannot draw properly, so it's not the point, but if I had to use, let's say, the pen tool, with the mouse, to me it's simply impossible. For the other tools, it's just like playing violin with a boxing glove: painful, tedious, inefficient, but still possible with a lot of practice.

[Heretic]

you can do it with a mouse but it is a lot more tedious and time consuming, I find the pen more of a natural way for my hand to move. The mouse always seemed an unnatural hand position. Plus why wouldn't you want to use the most up-to-date tools available for your profession.

[Carol Heath]

Buy a tablet. It will make your life much easier and save you on chiropractic bills. They are very simple to use. My three year old uses my old tablet and usually chooses this instead of a mouse.

[Godmother]

I started with a mouse and just got a tablet 2 years ago.

My DVD was done entirely with a mouse to show ppl that you don't NEED a tablet to be good. And a tablet will not make you a good retoucher.

If you can afford it GO FOR IT - it's easier to retouch with a tablet and I personally recommend Bamboo Fun (Pen and touch) But it's a really personal choice I'd try them all before you make a decision.

When you do, disconnect your mouse for a week so you get used to it

Good luck and have fun.

[TEastman]

There are very accomplished artists and photoshoppers who use nothing but the touch pad on their laptops. I personally use both the mouse (wireless) and a tablet and frequently switch back and forth, depending on what tool I am using. I would rate a tablet as something very nice to have, but it is not absolutely necessary. Start with something inexpensive (<$100) and if you need something better, upgrade once your skills justify it.

Being able to draw is always beneficial, but the need for it depends on what kind of imaging you want to do.


Todd

[ftp-Jeff]

Can you paint with a brick? I have always used an A3 Wacom.... Works great.

[DSutherland]

I'm thinking about a tablet but have become really proficient with a mouse. When I try using tablets I always feel stuck...lately my wrist has been getting really sore and I think it might be due to overuse of the mouse, do tablets help that sort of thing?
Natalia, you said you recommend the bamboo pen and touch, is that the one you use? I have one sitting in a box in my living room but haven't played with it (it's my soon to be father-laws)...I've heard some designers laugh when you mention the bamboo products but your a professional and probably with more experience than them, do you have any negative thoughts about it?...it's cheap and small enough that I might consider it for practicing on.

[4personnen]

I tested some Wacoms of different sizes and found out that A6 or A5 is sufficient for my PS work (would be different for CAD work, or Painter work). A3 is really tedious as you make long stokes to cross your screen. At the end I bought a "pen and touch" as I don't need the tilt function in PS (different for other softwares) and the resolution is enough accurate for me. I used Painter in my old days and my old A6 Wacom was not enough for that job but I always been happy with that size in Photoshop. I also had the chance to see and draw few lines on a Cintiq and to me and for my purpose it doesn't worth the money involved. It's all a question of what you need and not what other professional use. Some people work in an environment where budget is not an issue and get the high standard stuff from their boss when they actually don't really need it. Go in a proper shop, test them all, make your own idea.


PS: In Britain there are sometimes workshops from Wacom in selected shops, from time to time. It's a real occasion for testing the products. Can't see something like that in Canada from their site, but maybe worth a try to drop them a line to see where their products are featured properly near you.

[Heretic]

one piece of advice, use the mouse that comes with the tablets for regular computer stuff to save wear on your pen tips. I plow through tips if I only use the pen.

[Godmother]

Originally Posted by DSutherland

When I try using tablets I always feel stuck...

It's a new tool and as such u need time to adjust. Just disconnect the mouse and do all your regular stuff with the tablet - browse websites, play games (this really helps) use photoshop for minor things and DON'T CHEAT ust use the tablet and you'll get used to it in a week

Originally Posted by DSutherland

lately my wrist has been getting really sore and I think it might be due to overuse of the mouse, do tablets help that sort of thing?

Yes... but something always hurt when you're a retoucher :P

Originally Posted by DSutherland

Natalia, you said you recommend the bamboo pen and touch, is that the one you use?

Yes I tested them all actually I could quote 4personnen

Originally Posted by 4personnen

I tested some Wacoms of different sizes and found out that medium size is sufficient for my PS work (would be different for CAD work, or Painter work). A3 is really tedious as you make long stokes to cross your screen. At the end I bought a "pen and touch" as I don't need the tilt function in PS (different for other softwares) and the resolution is enough accurate for me.

Also

Originally Posted by 4personnen

Go in a proper shop, test them all, make your own idea.

Originally Posted by DSutherland

I've heard some designers laugh when you mention the bamboo products but your a professional and probably with more experience than them, do you have any negative thoughts about it?...it's cheap and small enough that I might consider it for practicing on.

A guy with a small dick big attitude is always going to tell you to buy a Porsche the biggest and the most expensive one!
But I'm a girl so I don't need the biggest and most expensive one

You get use to the tablet there (you already have it!) When you get use to the tablet as a tool you can compared them all and see which one fits you.

x

[hippooo]

Originally Posted by Godmother

A guy with a small dick big attitude is always going to tell you to buy a Porsche the biggest and the most expensive one!
But I'm a girl so I don't need the biggest and most expensive one

You get use to the tablet there (you already have it!) When you get use to the tablet as a tool you can compared them all and see which one fits you.

x

i really like worked for 3 months now on a intuos wacom..it really relaxed my wrist from tensions

[vdsq]

DSutherland: you will get pain in your wrist with tablet also
but the pen will help with correct position of your hand
natural position is with your thumb up, using a mouse will force you to rotate the hand to handle the mouse
all depends on your hand/body position and posture and hand movement
try to move your hand from the elbow and not the wrist, wrist is delicate joint
try to build muscle on you forearm and hand
if your pain is constant visit a medic and maybe he will recommend a splint to restrict same movement of your hand
i use to have a bad pain in my hand but i build/use a splint and pain is ok now
the splint help me control and restrict rotation of the hand from forearm
also do not use full tablet size - remap active surface to a small part of the tablet
this will reduce the movement you need to make to cover large part of the screen
you will get more accurate in time with this
i hope will help
good luck

[DSutherland]

Wow, everyone had some great replies here.
I am living in Japan right now and one of their 8 story electronics stores (Yodobashi Camera) has everything from professional moniters to tablets of all shapes and sizes for you to play and experiment with...I'm moving back to Canada next week though so maybe I'll go in there this week and see which one is the best fit.
I think I remember a post on here a long time ago about a flash game thats really good for improving your pen/mouse skills.
Thanks for the advice everyone...and the humorous remarks :P

[Kengel]

Originally Posted by ftp-Jeff

Can you paint with a brick?

Ha ha - spot on!

[Godmother]

Originally Posted by Kengel

Ha ha - spot on!

I only started using a tablet a year ago

x

[Kengel]

Originally Posted by Godmother

I only started using a tablet a year ago

x

It took me a very long time before I went to a tablet - (also just a couple of years ago) - but being an artist I found the pen incredibly intuitive and immediately thought "what was I waiting for?". My technique and quality of work improved almost immediately.

I sometimes go from my MacBook and try to use finger gestures on my desktop's tablet unconsciously, DOH! LOL

Now I'm looking at the Magic Trackpad - wondering how cool that might be? Wireless too. Maybe not for fine detailed work but for many things it could be a real stressless bonus. Worth a try and probably the next thing on my list to buy.

[jeljones]

I get asked this question everyday. Everyone here has answered it. Anyway, I'll give you the same spill.

You do not need a tablet. If you can't draw with a pen to paper you certainly wont be able to draw on a tablet.

If or when you buy one. Lock up your mouse for a week and force yourself to get used to the tablet. The hardest part is recognising that your tablet area is mapped to the dimensions of the monitor. So, you don't 'push' the cursor around your screen like you do with a mouse. If you want the top left of the screen you position the pen in the same location on your tablet and the cursor will jump to that location. I see people when they first try our tablets out attempting to 'push' the cursor around. Young kids tend to get used to them quicker than adults. I guess this is due to the fact that they haven't been using a mouse for 15+ years.

The main advantages of using a wacom tablet;

- They're pressure sensitive. So, if you would like to control opacity or the size of your brush stroke with how hard you press your pen on the tablet you can do so. (Intuos4 has 2048 levels or pressure. Bamboo has 1024.)
- Ergonomic. Yes, you will still probably get a sore hand if you retouch for hours on end. Its a little like writing a 10 page essay at school and your hand aching afterwards. It is still better then a sore wrist from elevating your hand to hold a mouse.
- Access to common shortcuts at your fingertips. Depending on which tablet you go for, either the Intuos or the Bamboo. Intuos4 has 8 expresskeys which you can customise to whatever you want PER APPLICATION (this means it will remember you shortcuts in what ever application you're in.) The Bamboo has 4 keys which are universal, which means if you set one key to "v" for the move tool in PS you could essentially type "v" by pressing the same key in Microsoft word.

There is plenty more to say but I fear that I'm boring people. The team at Wacom America have made heaps of useful videos at www.youtube.com/wacom so go check it out.

I guess you can read and watch all the information you can about these things but at the end of the day you'll want to try one out. Here in Australia we have them in heaps of retail outlets. Not sure where you're from but I'm sure that if you look hard enough you'll find one to try somewhere.

[brodiebutler]

I have always used a mouse, but I bought a wacom tablet at photoshop world in vegas this year.

I find often I will open photoshop and be half way through an image, i look down and im still using the mouse! Although I am pretty proficient with my mouse and keyboard commands so I forget the use the tablet. So it hasnt had as much of an effect on me. I love using though and somethings are a bit easier and quicker.

[iroshk]

Hoping that this will not disturb the creator of this topic, i would like to ask a related question:
Do you have some prior drawing or painting skills before starting with Photo Shop Retouching? I find that most of the best retouchers i know have great talent in drawing, painting, one of them was even a tattooist. If so, is this an essential talent? Can someone be a good retoucher without any drawing skills whatsoever?
Thank you for your replies,
Ionel

[Godmother]

Originally Posted by iroshk

Can someone be a good retoucher without any drawing skills whatsoever?

Depends on what you call good.

Everything is possible. I know it's going to be harder but to say someone CAN'T it's a bit much

[byRo]

Originally Posted by mattp

Can pro quality photo re-touching be done with a mouse ....?

[Short Answer] Yes.

Originally Posted by mattp

... do you need to be able to draw proficiently ...?

[Short Answer] No.

[Long Answers]
- Beware of short answers. It's never that clear cut an issue.

- A mouse is better suited to "static" interfaces, a tablet for "dynamic" interfaces, it's just a question of using the right tool at the right time.

- If you want to set up a spreadsheet you would best use a mouse, if you want to simulate sweeeping oil-paint brushstrokes you would best use a tablet . Retouching is neither one or the other.

- To me the greatest difference between a mouse and a tablet is something that has not yet been mentioned. If you want to use the keyboard, with two hands, you just leave the mouse where it is, with a tablet you have to store the pen - it's a tiresome split second difference.

Originally Posted by brodiebutler

I find often I will open photoshop and be half way through an image, I look down and im still using the mouse!

Oh good! It's not just me then.

Rô

[ChasP505]

I'm physically challenged and am unable to hold or use a pen. I do just fine with a mouse. If I can do it, why can't someone with no physical limitations do it?

[Flashtones]

Originally Posted by byRo

- To me the greatest difference between a mouse and a tablet is something that has not yet been mentioned. If you want to use the keyboard, with two hands, you just leave the mouse where it is, with a tablet you have to store the pen - it's a tiresome split second difference.

You are hindered by your typing alacrity. Us two finger typists can keep the pen in our hands. Two finger typists rule!

[jeljones]

Originally Posted by Flashtones

You are hindered by your typing alacrity. Us two finger typists can keep the pen in our hands. Two finger typists rule!

Haha, I find myself typing with the pen still in my hand too!

[byRo]

Originally Posted by jeljones

Haha, I find myself typing with the pen still in my hand too!

Yed, yop're quitw rifht! It'd eady to tyoe witj thw pem im the hanb.

Rô

[byRo]

Originally Posted by Flashtones

... alacrity...

Had to look it up.
Learned a new word today!

Rô

[Flashtones]

Originally Posted by byRo

Had to look it up.
Learned a new word today!

Rô

Typed it with a pen in my hand too, so there!

[Boneappetit]

Originally Posted by ChasP505

I'm physically challenged and am unable to hold or use a pen. I do just fine with a mouse. If I can do it, why can't someone with no physical limitations do it?

That's cool ChasP, congratulations. Keep up the good work.

[Adrianr]

Interesting to hear the responses. I couldn't retouch without my tablet now (Well, I could, but I'd rather not!). I used a really old Wacom sapphire for a bit and never thought I would get used to them, but it wasn't exactly the best introduction to tablets. So I tried an Intuos3 which was streaks ahead, and eventually bought myself an Intuos4. Now Every time I click into Photoshop I instinctively reach for the pen (made easier by the nice little stand they supply you with!).

If you just do casual retouching from time to time, the Bamboo series are really good. But if you spend long periods in Photoshop and frequently (IE, for work), I really couldn't recommend the Intuos4 range enough. The whole product oozes quality, and just feels really nice to use for long periods of time (The difference in pens for example, between the Bamboo and Intuos4 is night and day - and having the buttons on the tablet is great). If you retouch with methods like D&B, they really are a life saver, if for nothing more than not having to hear a click from the mouse every split second.

For the seemingly steep initial outlay, it's definitely made my time in Photoshop less of a chore. I have a medium assigned to my 24" main monitor and the tablet:screen ratio is perfect IMO.