how do I make a match SWOP color bar?

[Caravaggio]

I am using CS5. I am supposed to deliver a file to a client with a match SWOP color bar. How do I make this? Thanks a lot.

[pixelzombie]

a google search led me here but i don't see such a chart for download:

http://www.swop.org/resources/downloads.asp

[andrewrodney]

You are going to have to get more info from the about what they expect. Pure CMYK values in SWOP V2 (what profile defining SWOP?). A G7 certified proof bar?

This may help:
http://www.swop.org/specification/SWOP_EdX_Specs.pdf

[Caravaggio]

In the absence of any information from the party involved, what SWOP profile would you guess that I am safest using? Project has a tight deadline and all I know is that is going to be printed in a magazine. Would you guess that I should deliver the file as CMYK or a TIFF file although I read this in the document that you attached, Andrew.

Files representing print-ready material should be exchanged only as CMYK data using the TIFF/IT-P1 or PDF/X-1a file formats or their future versions. The use of non-standard, application or native file formats is not permitted.

Thank you for saving my ass.

[andrewrodney]

The last thing you want to do is deliver output ready CMYK for the wrong device. Deadline or not, this is super dangerous. Send tagged RGB (probably something like sRGB or ColorMatch RGB) unless you get specific information, ideally a profile for the process.

[Caravaggio]

Thank you so much Andrew!

[ShadowLight]

when I was printing something on a Lambda, I attached a colour bar by which the printer was set... probably this is what they ask here too.

(when they have the known colours they set their custom profile so it will print with the intended colours)

[Chain]

Originally Posted by andrewrodney

(probably something like sRGB or ColorMatch RGB)

Probably 8-bit RGB image as AdobeRGB. TIFF (possibly with LZW-compression to chop size in half). If it is not an image file but a regular document (e.g. from Illustrator or InDesign) choose PDF/X-1a (with crop marks, bleed, color bars).

If they need it in CMYK and with some specific color bar they really should give you more information about exactly what they want (what CMYK-profile, exactly what color bar – and where you might acquire it). If not you just have to make a guess... :/

[Caravaggio]

Thank you, Chain and ShadowLight. I sent it off to them as a PSD with an embedded profile just to be safe as they never gave me a CMYK profile.

[Chain]

A flattened TIFF-file would probably be better than the complete PSD due to filesize and compatibility (the PSD might require Photoshop, while a TIFF is accepted by a lot more programs).

That being said, they probably have Photoshop so it might be cool

[andrewrodney]

I’d be hard pressed to send a print shop Adobe RGB (1998) unless I was darn sure they know about color management. The good thing about Colormatch RGB is outside an ICC aware handling, it should appear much like sRGB and its 1.8 TRC is a better fit for the dot gain behavior on press. That’s why Karl Lang created it this when way back in the PressView days.

[Caravaggio]

Well the PSD had this embedded profile. I choose sRGB because it was a smaller workspace. It wasn't a print shop but a major magazine so they should have photoshop. I don't know, I am just winging it.

[Chain]

I think you'll be fine.

Anyway, if it is for use in a magazine and you are not creating the press-ready PDF of a whole page (e.g. you have made an AD), then it is possible they will be placing your image into InDesign or something similar. It should handle any color space correctly.

But you never know; their setup could have been made with someone who thinks it is a GREAT idea to turn off color management in InDesign and just ignore profiles for all linked content... (Working in a major magazine company myself i can confirm they actually were doing this before i changed a couple of color settings... They used to convert every single image file to CMYK before linking it in InDesign, and pass on the raw CMYK-values to the PDF. If it was with the wrong CMYK-profile the profile would be ignored and the colors a bit wrong... -.- Also, not setting their PDF export preset to convert colors to the correct color space they would sometimes let RGB colors slip through and not be noticed until contacted by the printing company... yay...). Ok sorry, now I'm ranting... :P "Convert to destination" is your friend when exporting to PDF :P

[Chain]

Originally Posted by andrewrodney

I’d be hard pressed to send a print shop Adobe RGB (1998) unless I was darn sure they know about color management. The good thing about Colormatch RGB is outside an ICC aware handling, it should appear much like sRGB and its 1.8 TRC is a better fit for the dot gain behavior on press. That’s why Karl Lang created it this when way back in the PressView days.

AdobeRGB should have room for some additional colors that the printer can reproduce but isn't covered by sRGB. However I agree that for systems that are not color managed sRGB is the way to go. I have not checked out Colormatch RGB before (i see it has a very similar gamut). I'll read up on it now...

[Caravaggio]

Thank you, Chain. I think I will be ok as the image was for editorial and going to receive further work from their inhouse retouching staff. Sounds like I should have handed off a Colormatch RGB to have been on the safeside, but I wasn't familiar with it at the time.

[mushmush]

Hello all,
I work for a print shop and we generally assign untagged RGB files as sRGB.
As a default- if somebody doesn't know to embed a profile- they probably haven't touched their Color Management settings - which is North American General Purpose: sRGB.
I would say- and have stated to clients:: just to Please make sure the file is tagged with a profile. I can convert the thing on my end to our custom CMYK profile- I just want to know what the Source Profile is.
Then I can deal with out of Gamut issues.

[Chain]

Yep. Tag all files you hand out. Even if it is sRGB.
(An exception would be (final) size-critical images on the web...)

Files without profiles are usually assumed to be sRGB, but you can not always count on it.

Caravaggio: Ah, well, if they will continue to work on your image then you won't need those color bars. Hand them a flat LZW-compressed TIFF-file with whatever RGB working space your image has "originally" (no need for an additional pointless conversion). Profile embeeded.

Personally, as a working space I use AdobeRGB for print, and sRGB for web/screen work, but I know people use different setups... All work, but with some different tradeoffs.

[Caravaggio]

Thank you, Chain. I just checked the file I handed over. In the save as dialogue box I see that embed color profile is checked and the profile selected is Adobe RGB. I guess I was confused because under color settings, the working space I had chosen to work in for this image was sRGB so I assumed that was also the profile that was embedded in the file.

I usually work in RGB, but decided to work in sRGB for this file because I didn't know where the file was going at the time.

[Chain]

The profile chosen in Photoshop Color Settings are overridden by whatever profile is assigned to your current image(s). So you can work on an Adobe RGB image, even if Photoshop Color Settings are set to sRGB.

The Photoshop Color Settings are used as the defaults when you create new files, or to convert using Image > Mode (Tip: Edit > Convert to Profile will let you choose profile freely when changing color mode). An important thing to be aware is that the profiles set in the Color Settings is what Photoshop will assume when an image doesn't have an embedded profile (so I recommend ticking the check-boxes to have Photoshop ask/warn you of missing profiles).

[Caravaggio]

Thank you, Chain. One thing I am confused about is when I just checked all the files in the Bridge that I had previously sent off to clients , it says under metadata>color profile, that all my files are Adobe RGB but that they are untagged. How do you tag a file anyway and should I be doing that before sending off to clients? What is the difference between embedding a profile in "save as" and tagging a file? Thanks for the education.

[Chain]

Are you sure it actually says Untagged AND Adobe RGB (and not just "RGB")? This computer only has CS3 so I can't check how Bridge displays it in CS4-5 right now...

If a file is "Untagged" it means that there is no profile assigned/attached (and Photoshop will display it using whatever profile is set in your Color Settings).
Tip: If you want Photoshop to warn you, check the warning boxes in your Color Settings (see screenshot).

In the bottom left corner of an open image (see screenshot) you can have Photoshop show you whatever profile the current image is in. I recommend this.

If an image is "Untagged" you should go to Edit > Assign Profile... to assign the correct profile to the image (this does not change the color values in the image). If you do not know the correct one, try Adobe RGB and sRGB first and see what gives the best result.

When saving the image, make sure "Embed color profile" is checked, or it will become "Untagged" again.

Did this make sense?

Here's a summary of the terms used:
* Tag = Assign profile = Attach a color profile to the image. Does not alter color values, but affects how they are displayed.
* Untagged = An image that has no assigned profile.
* Embed profile = Save the color profile embedded in the image file (when saving). In most situations this is important to do.
* RGB = The color model "RGB", not a specific profile. Both Adobe RGB and sRGB are RGB profiles.

[Caravaggio]

That makes sense and makes things a lot clearer to me. Also I think I was confused by what the Bridge displays under color profile. It must be referring to the number of files and not to one particular image. See attached screenshot.

Looks like I will have to go through my images and assign a profile to the untagged ones.

Thank you so much for explaining things to me.

[Chain]

Oh, that is the Filter panel, not the Metadata panel (screenshot). The filter panel is for filtering the files you see, not for showing you information about the current file. What it shows you there is indeed the number of untagged and Adobe RGB files in your current folder.

If you click on where it says "Untagged" it will only show you the Untagged files ("filtering" your view). Good idea if you need to figure out what images are missing profiles? If you have a lot of files in a folder or the same files in different formats it very handy to use the Filter panel to do things like "show me only JPEG files modified today".

[Caravaggio]

Thanks, Chain, for all the useful information. I had no idea that is what the Filter panel was for.