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D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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  #11  
Old 01-06-2011, 08:28 AM
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Der_W Der_W is offline
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
If you use a frequency separation and you will touch a HP layer so your GB layer will come through - do you blur the picture?
Of course. Blurring = eliminating high frequencies.
If you block out the high frequencies of the high pass, you're left with the low pass alone, which is the same as a blur.

To the OP: results like these are from extremely careful dodge & burn work (maybe in combination with some blur afterwards but I rather doubt that).
Sometimes they look overdone, but that's not a fault of the process by itself imho.
As it has been said, some art directors just want a softer look.
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  #12  
Old 01-06-2011, 08:44 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by Der_W View Post
Of course. Blurring = eliminating high frequencies.
If you block out the high frequencies of the high pass, you're left with the low pass alone, which is the same as a blur.
OK. Let's talk about the texture of the skin. Woman does not like wrinkles. So you can "blur" her skin (you will change contrast between pores) or you can use D&B (you will change contrast between pores). In the case of a beauty shot the skin is pretty close to the lens so you can see a lot of texture. But in the case of a full size (half size) body shot? How much texture of the skin you are really able to see on the image? Are we talking about the texture of the skin or about the shape (light & shadows) of the body?

Last edited by creativeretouch; 01-06-2011 at 08:52 AM.
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  #13  
Old 01-06-2011, 08:53 AM
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

In which way is this related to your original question if touching up the high frequencies so that the low frequencies come through is like blurring? Maybe I simply didn't get you in the first place?

If you think that dodge & burn is a way to change the contrast in the image and blur is just another way, you're correct.
However when talking about blur people usually mean blur applied globally so that not even areas are less contrasted that you wanted to have less contrast, but also areas that should have contrast (e.g. pores).
Another thing is that blur can reduce contrast, but it won't add any (try it out by using a large amount of GBlur on your images and check the histogram before and after).
With dodge & burn you can do both, add and reduce contrast.

One could argue that selective use of blurring could cause similar effects, but than again you don't have all that lot of control and if you really take your time to do it perfect, you don't all that much anything in the sense of time and might as well introduce more problems because of the way filters work.
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:08 AM
fraiseap fraiseap is offline
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

I will phrase my question slightly differently;

I take an image and give it to 2 retouchers. The model's skin is good and makeup has been applied professionally. There are no big zits or scars but the skin has uneven areas and areas of rough texture.

Retoucher 1 uses frequency separation so has a blurred layer (lets say 4px) and a HP layer (also 4px). He/she then creates a dup of the blurred layer, increases blur to about 30 px and applies a mask so it only shows over the skin that he/she is worried about. Next the 30 px blurred layer has its opacity reduced until the retoucher is happy. This has taken about 15 mins.

Retoucher 2 magnifies to 600% and creates 2 curves adjustment layers for D&B, then adjusts each pixel so that pores are still there but all the imperfections, creases or other undesirable features are smoothed out. This has taken about a day.

The 2 images are printed on a mass production press for a mainstream magazine.

What percentage of readers of the magazine will be able to tell which image is which? Also, which one will they prefer the look of?
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:13 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by Der_W View Post
In which way is this related to your original question if touching up the high frequencies so that the low frequencies come through is like blurring? Maybe I simply didn't get you in the first place?
I just wanted to make clear what is "blurring" and what isn't. You can use all techniques and tools to get the image look as you wish. We need to talk about the size of the brush. If you erase a wrinkle on the HP layer (you will BLUR the wrinkle) instead of using D&B what is the difference? The result remains same. If your work is precise.

The final look of the picture is important. Not the way you get there.

Please think about those photographers mentioned above. Why this advert we are talking about is not as good as their pictures created without Photoshop???
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:17 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by fraiseap View Post
The 2 images are printed on a mass production press for a mainstream magazine.
What percentage of readers of the magazine will be able to tell which image is which? Also, which one will they prefer the look of?
Exactly!
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  #17  
Old 01-06-2011, 09:31 AM
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

@fraiseap: If the blur radius that retoucher 1 used was so high, that surrounding areas bleed into the area that he wanted to fix, I'd prefer the work of retoucher 2, although I don't know, why he'd go into 600% and correct pixel per pixel ;-).

@creativeretouch: That's why we don't paint with gray over wrinkles on the high frequency layer, but use e.g. the healing brush to replace the texture. Of course the original is destroyed, but it still has texture.
Dodge & burn is not used to fix everything. Just to fix what most of us call "blotchiness".
And we agree that the final look is important :-).
I just said that dodge & burn offers more control, nothing more.
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:41 AM
fraiseap fraiseap is offline
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by Der_W View Post
@fraiseap: If the blur radius that retoucher 1 used was so high, that surrounding areas bleed into the area that he wanted to fix, I'd prefer the work of retoucher 2, although I don't know, why he'd go into 600% and correct pixel per pixel ;-).
I just gave those numbers as examples. Maybe the middle layer should only have 10px GB, or maybe surface blur was used. Maybe the mask was applied in areas where there was no bleed and another mask was used with less blur for the areas where bleed was present.

Similarly 600% was just an example, maybe 200% or even 100% was enough.

The question is, what is better about retoucher 2's result and how obvious is it on a printed page. Also, is it worth the time required?
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  #19  
Old 01-06-2011, 09:44 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by Der_W View Post
@creativeretouch: That's why we don't paint with gray over wrinkles on the high frequency layer, but use e.g. the healing brush to replace the texture. Of course the original is destroyed, but it still has texture.
Dodge & burn is not used to fix everything. Just to fix what most of us call "blotchiness".
And we agree that the final look is important :-).
I just said that dodge & burn offers more control, nothing more.
That's why I was talking about the distance of the skin from the lens ...

Yes, you can use a healing brush but even this brush is not perfect and on the final print (as we are professionals we are talking about the prepress image resolution which is about 300 dpi and as we all know we are retouching our image in the 72 dpi on the screen) you can not see the difference.

i am just getting upset with this "blurring" and "not blurring" as this is just a one tool from your tool box
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  #20  
Old 01-06-2011, 09:50 AM
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

@fraiseap: The answer to both of your questions is: it depends.
Depends on what the images looked like before, how good the techniques were applied and on what paper it's printed.
Again: I said that retoucher 2's result CAN look better, not that it WILL look better or to what extent.

Besides, in most cases when such a band stop (blurring the low frequencies even more while keeping the high frequencies intact) is applied to heavily, the result can look extremely blurry from a distance (because it lacks the middle frequencies).
It doesn't have to of course and that's were the wheat from the chaff is sorted metaphorically spoken ;-).

A professional retoucher should use whatever tool matches the purpose imo.
If the image demands on/can get away with blur (meaning: won't look worse than a dodged & burned image) , by all means use it, everything else would be a waste of time & client's money.

Edit: @creativeretouch: Yepp, that's what I'm trying to say the whole time :-).
Blur is one tool in the box, dodge & burn is another. Whichever gives better results is up to the end user, but dodge & burn is more controllable because it doesn't rely on any algorithm.

Regarding 72 dpi: http://www.scantips.com/no72dpi.html

Edit #2: I'm no professional btw. just a hobbyist :-).

Last edited by Der_W; 01-06-2011 at 10:01 AM.
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