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D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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  #61  
Old 01-08-2011, 07:25 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by Godmother View Post
+exposure/light
- exposure/light

(?)
yes, but I would say D&B in the darkroom.
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  #62  
Old 01-08-2011, 07:26 AM
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by Godmother View Post
+exposure/light
- exposure/light

(?)
No, in this one its the other way round Natalia.
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  #63  
Old 01-08-2011, 07:31 AM
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by Markzebra View Post
No, in this one its the other way round Natalia.
I thought so at first but I didn't like it :/

I'd have done the opposite ... I guess he knows better tho :P

When I'm back from my vacations I'm going to start learning film photography and retouching - intend of moving forward I'm thinking of going the other way.

Wish me luck

X
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  #64  
Old 01-08-2011, 07:36 AM
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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I'd have done the opposite ... I guess he knows better tho :P
No I don't think you would have. If you'd dodged those brows and cheeks any higher he would have looked a bit odd.

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I'm going to start learning film photography and retouching - intend of moving forward I'm thinking of going the other way.
Maybe we'll meet in the middle some day.
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  #65  
Old 01-08-2011, 07:38 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

I just wanted to say "D&B" technique is nothing new here so I do not understand why people making too much noise because of that ...

About tools ... in such a dogmatic way ...

From my point of view retouch should be invisible. Yes it is an invisible art ... And all of us are learning through all of our life.

Perhaps we should start to talk about RETOUCHING versus POSTPRODUCTION.

Edit:
-----------

RETOUCHING = respecting classic photography & real world

POSTPRODUCTION = adding new subjects (2D or 3D), changing colors in the unnatural way etc ...

Last edited by creativeretouch; 01-08-2011 at 07:55 AM.
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  #66  
Old 01-08-2011, 08:20 AM
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

I think that's just your definition tho

Check the last Vogue Cover - there's always a magical middle point.

X
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  #67  
Old 01-08-2011, 08:33 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by Godmother View Post
I think that's just your definition tho

Check the last Vogue Cover - there's always a magical middle point.

X
You can check portfolios of the biggest retouching houses and you will see what I am talking about.
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  #68  
Old 01-08-2011, 09:57 AM
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
yes, but I would say D&B in the darkroom.
Thats exactly what I would say - this looks like a first work print made by the photographer Richard Avedon the marking signify as godmother said Dodging and Burning
+exposure/light - Burn in the area shown in the plus marked areas (cupping hands to hold back light from other areas or a cut out in card)
- exposure/light - Dodge the areas (using hands or small card on wire) indicated by minus sign and decrease exposure by the stated figure

It is unlikely that the numbers represent actual exposure times therefore I would suggest they indicate percentage increase or decrease to the overall exposure time of the initial work print. e.g. +30 would equal a further Burning in for an additional 30% of the main exposure time. Similarly -4 would indicate holding back the light (Dodging) for 4% of the total exposure.

Bleaching of prints and negatives was also undertaken by hand either overall or localised using Ferricyanide solution. Most of these jobs would be undertaken by the photographer or his most trusted printer. Negative and transparency retouching was/is? a very specialised job and required a great deal of skill and caution - I have seen and commissioned some work from amazingly talented people in this field - most sadly no longer with us.

As stated with the advent of Photoshop, Corel Painter and others the specialised tools are available to all. However the skill and knowledge to use them effectively still requires much time and dedication and vision.
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  #69  
Old 01-11-2011, 02:22 AM
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

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Originally Posted by fraiseap View Post
I know I am going to get flamed for this but, what the hell!

First, I am not a retoucher, I am a photographer. Also I know that my attempts at retouching are amatuerish compared to some of the experts here (who I have a lot of respect for). Having said that I must admit to some confusion.

I have read a lot about "there are no shot cuts", "degrunge is not suitable for high end work", "proper retouching involves hours of D & B at pixel level" etc etc. However, when I look at beauty shots in magazines such as Vogue I honestly can't believe that the results can be obtained by D&B alone. I have attached an example from an Estee Lauder campaign (and they have the money to pay for hours of pixel level retouching). Sorry it is not a large file but flicking through any fashion mag will give you dozens of similar examples.

To my eyes this looks like smoothing with reintroduction of texture. Or am I being terribly naive?

Well, they actually sell MAKE-UP with this. (At least with your example.)

So what?

If they sell Make-Up, then actually the image should reflect the features of the Make-Up products (or suggerate them), right? (Like light reflecting micro particles, smoothing textures and so on...)

That's probably the reason why all that "D&B HYPE" here in that forum is not *that* applicable to Estee Lauder and consorts campaigns...


It possibly would be somehow different, if they make a campain for a clinical skincare or such. But even then: Retouching certainly DOES NOT all trace down to a single retouching "technology" LOL, as D&B. And that's actually a very good thing in my opinion (personally nerved by the endless D&B threads here and all over in the menatime)...


In the case of beauty companies and their canpaigns, the skins are not so much "blured" in my opinion but more "over-exposed" in the sense of "glowing". At least that's obviously the intented expression of most of the campaigns.

Smooth and smart over-exposing (or any retouched visual impression of that) ist actually a very traditional way in the beauty industry for hundereds of years now.

And by the way: D&B has one very obvious drawback: As you work with the picture for hours and days, you completely lose any distance to the all-over impression of the image. And that is always very bad.

An art director always has (to have) a strong sight on the all-over impression of the picture and the campaign. If the impression is a beatyful glowing skin tone, then actually the product WILL SELL. Period. (If he does not care about any D&B (Dings and Bums) technology hype, so he actually does his job very well.)
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  #70  
Old 01-11-2011, 02:44 AM
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Re: D & B? I am struggling to believe this

In summ: They won't sell a single piece of makeup cream more because of the simple (stupid) fact that they used core and perfect "D&B" technique for their campaigns. (To hell, they do not even want to point out, that the adverts are retouched at all.)

Their campaigns, never the less, are all TOP and looking beatyful. Period.

The entire D&B debatte is kinda stoopid, because there is not only ONE way to rertouch skin right. And D&B is certainly not perfect (because of all the production drawbacks) and only a very small portion of the entire game.
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