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Just can't get skin smoothing right... help?

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  #11  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:33 AM
erose86 erose86 is offline
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Re: Just can't get skin smoothing right... help?

Great, thank you for the links!
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  #12  
Old 01-12-2011, 05:47 AM
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Repairman Repairman is offline
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Re: Just can't get skin smoothing right... help?

@Butch. I am not a 'skin' retoucher so I found those links really useful. I downloaded one of the actions and would like to try it out. Can you save me some time and let me know how you activate actions! I am using (CS3).
many thanks
R.
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  #13  
Old 01-12-2011, 08:33 AM
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amica999 amica999 is offline
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Re: Just can't get skin smoothing right... help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Repairman View Post
@Butch. I am not a 'skin' retoucher so I found those links really useful. I downloaded one of the actions and would like to try it out. Can you save me some time and let me know how you activate actions! I am using (CS3).
many thanks
R.
Put the action in some place you remember. Open the action palette and click the little triangle for the options...Load action and navigate to the action that you've saved.
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  #14  
Old 01-18-2011, 07:59 AM
fraiseap fraiseap is offline
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Re: Just can't get skin smoothing right... help?

OK, here is my take on this problem. Before I start I will say that I am a photographer and not a retoucher. Also we are talking about making something look good, not blurred, but avoiding hours of pixel level D&B.

There is, IMO, a lot of snobbery about this subject. Many people will tell you that using blur is a no-no but then go on to extoll the virtues of frequency separation. They fail to point out that frequency separation actually includes applying blur and reintroducing texture (usually by high pass filter). If you get the blur and high pass right and combine them using linear light the original image results. Getting an inbalance between blur and high pass can result in fake skin but can also, if done carefully, create a very nice looking effect.

Similarly, maintaining high frequencies and low frequencies and removing many of the middle frequencies is the basis behind the quick degrunge technique.

I have tried a load of different methods including masked Gaussian blur (horrible and fake), Painting at low opacity with color blend mode (not very good) pure D&B (tedious, end result very realistic but not the smooth look I see in high end retouchers ports) and degrunge (not good enough for me). I have, for the time being settled on this one;

http://web.me.com/joelgrimes/Joel_Gr...Smoothing.html

I would love to know what the pro retouchers think of this method.
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  #15  
Old 01-18-2011, 09:12 AM
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Godmother Godmother is offline
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Re: Just can't get skin smoothing right... help?

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Originally Posted by fraiseap View Post
Also we are talking about making something look good, not blurred, but avoiding hours of pixel level D&B.
That's a good start. What you want out of the thread. That's what the OP should have done.

Now.. GOOD is relative.

It would be good to determine the target and that would also save some unwanted replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fraiseap View Post
There is, IMO, a lot of snobbery about this subject. Many people will tell you that using blur is a no-no
I can only talk about myself and the retouchers I talk often to. When We say USE BLUR - we are talking about direct blur on skin + mask + added fake texture on top.

and that is a NO NO

Quote:
Originally Posted by fraiseap View Post
but then go on to extoll the virtues of frequency separation.
Frequency separation in it's own does NOTHING to the image, it's not a technique in it self

I talk about the virtues of CERTAIN uses of frequency separation. Healing/cloning on the HIGH is faster than doing it on a blank layer and when used right you get good results working on TEXTURE


Quote:
Originally Posted by fraiseap View Post
They fail to point out that frequency separation actually includes applying blur and reintroducing texture (usually by high pass filter).
That is the BASE of frequency separation... you create the exact opposite of the GB with the HP (or a Apply image based HP if you want accurate results)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fraiseap View Post
If you get the blur and high pass right and combine them using linear light the original image results.
There's no if - Frequency separation is splitting the image in 2 frequencies. Period. No "inbalance" in it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fraiseap View Post
Getting an inbalance between blur and high pass can result in fake skin but can also, if done carefully, create a very nice looking effect.
Here you're talking about Bandpass... IF you duplicate the low and apply further blurring you will create something different than the original image because you're getting rid of medium shadow/light variations between the "general shape" within the LF and the Radius of texture you decided to keep in the HP (what ever that is)

The amount of further blurring and the masking done to it are factors that will determine the "quality" of the results.

I advice against this method for beauty images in general because it's hard to control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fraiseap View Post
I have tried a load of different methods including masked Gaussian blur (horrible and fake), Painting at low opacity with color blend mode (not very good) pure D&B (tedious, end result very realistic but not the smooth look I see in high end retouchers ports) and degrunge (not good enough for me). I have, for the time being settled on this one;

http://web.me.com/joelgrimes/Joel_Gr...Smoothing.html

I would love to know what the pro retouchers think of this method.
I think the issue here is that you think there's ONE good technique good for all. And that's hardly the case.

In that link he is doing a slightly different kind of band pass.... but if you think that's a different technique then you don't really understand how Frequencies work. He is doing a Bandpass with Medium instead of GB -

He starts with an almost perfect image and the samples are small.

You still need to heal/clone before doing that and then D&B after you do that


see? "Step Five: Close-up of final image after dodging and burning. You can see that the skin looks nature still holding the texture."


Hope that makes it a bit clearer to you.

x
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  #16  
Old 01-18-2011, 10:04 AM
julianmarsalis julianmarsalis is offline
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Re: Just can't get skin smoothing right... help?

I think many people issues is they seek a magic bullet to solve all problems and in reality there is none just technique that can build upon each other to make a better image. Learn the foundation and fundamentals and the rest becomes child's play well almost still need a critical eye and that can be learned over time.
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  #17  
Old 01-18-2011, 10:26 AM
fraiseap fraiseap is offline
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Re: Just can't get skin smoothing right... help?

There is a problem with written words on a forum, and that problem is that comments can easily come over as offensive and rude (especially where capitals are used).

Now I have got that off my chest;

Quote:
Frequency separation in it's own does NOTHING to the image, it's not a technique in it self
I dont want to get into a boring semantic argument but a technique is a procedure used to accomplish a specific activity or task. It does not need to alter the image. Separating frequencies is a technique.

Quote:
There's no if - Frequency separation is splitting the image in 2 frequencies. Period. No "inbalance" in it.
A rather dogmatic statement. You can separate an image into 2, 3 or many frequencies. If you then remove or reduce some of the frequencies you are still using frequency separation IMO. Similarly, bandpass is a form of frequency separation (it is just that some frequencies are thrown away)

Quote:
I think the issue here is that you think there's ONE good technique good for all
I did not say that. Please do not presume to know what I think. There are many good techniques - this is merely one that I find useful for the problem that the OP identified.

Now, Godmother, I am very impressed with your work and find your posts very instructive. To answer posts in the way you have done is not welcoming to relative newcomers to this forum..
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  #18  
Old 01-18-2011, 10:41 AM
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Godmother Godmother is offline
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Re: Just can't get skin smoothing right... help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fraiseap View Post
There is a problem with written words on a forum, and that problem is that comments can easily come over as offensive and rude (especially where capitals are used).

I think it's a language thing. My post wasn't meant to be derogatory or offensive at all!
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  #19  
Old 01-18-2011, 10:50 AM
fraiseap fraiseap is offline
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Re: Just can't get skin smoothing right... help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmother View Post
I think it's a language thing. My post wasn't meant to be derogatory or offensive at all!
Yeah, I am sure it is a language thing. No worries.
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