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Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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  #31  
Old 01-17-2011, 01:23 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by SilvaFox View Post
Can I still manipulate colors on my calibrated monitor so they look good, have the correct values, and have the best chance of looking that way on the final product?
Yup, that’s exactly what color management is supposed to do. Numbers alone do not describe or define color appearance. Using proper color management provides the numbers the correct meaning and provides a preview of those numbers so if they look ugly, you can alter them to look as you desire and produce that color appearance on another device.


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A lot of us are not able to EXPLAIN (scientifically) why something looks awful.
And you don’t have to. If you have proper color management setup and the colors look ugly, make them look good.
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  #32  
Old 01-17-2011, 01:28 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
Andrew, have you ever heard about "luminosity masks" or "saturation masks" and other tools which will help you to adjust colors & contrast ??? This "ugly overlay" - how you call a gamut warning - will help you to define areas you have to continue to work on - to get them inside your final gamut as much as posible and keep all colors in a desired balance.
So you are proposing to use some kind of mask to de-saturate the colors, treating a 1% out of gamut and a 99% out of gamut color the same (since the overlay does) instead of using a profile to map them using a far faster and more robust process? And leaving the in gamut colors alone unlike what we get with a Perceptual intent? You are suggesting using such a mask, to remove the overlay will produce a better result than using the profiles? Lets do a test then. To an output device. And have a group pick which they think did a better job (blind test). I know which will do the job faster and I’m pretty darn sure which will do the job better. But if you are certain that making masks to remove the overlay is the best approach, I’ll take that bet.


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In my opinion, playing with ICC profiles without knowledge how to fix the source file will give you ugly final result ... as we can see everywhere around us every day ... unfortunately ...
Playing? Without knowledge? Just what is that supposed to mean? A blind conversion (no selection of a rendering intent, the wrong profile, an uncalibrated display)? So if you are saying, using tools incorrectly, be it a profile or a saturation mask is a bad idea and produce poor results, we are in total agreement. Now why should we assume either of us would do that?
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  #33  
Old 01-17-2011, 01:41 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

I am sure your way will be faster. I would not separate out of gamut colors only, I would change most of the colors and I will use my personal visual judgement. And I would touch the converted file as well. To get the most pleasant result based on my visual experience and taste.
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  #34  
Old 01-17-2011, 01:46 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
I would not separate out of gamut colors only, I would change most of the colors and I will use my personal visual judgement. And I would touch the converted file as well. To get the most pleasant result based on my visual experience and taste.
Seems then the gamut overlay is of little use if the goal isn’t to alter the overlay to remove it and affect only out of gamut colors. You are working on producing a pleasing color rendering. And of course, using the profiles to convert to the output space will affect this once again begging the question, why not soft proof and edit where you are actually seeing the effects of the conversion before converting (seeing without the overlay that blocks this important preview).
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  #35  
Old 01-17-2011, 02:04 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

As I said I would touch the converted file as well - does not it mean I would work on a soft proof as well which will become my final file with a final ICC profile?
Isn't it a manual, more precise way of converting files? With better results - if you know what you are doing? And a gamut warning will help me to go through this process?

So, to make it clear and to be sure we understand each other:

YOUR WAY:
a RGB file converted to the final (best) ICC profile during a printing process ... (with a soft proofing in the middle of the process to help to choose the best ICC profile)

MY WAY:
a manual conversion using all possible tools to a final (best) ICC profile and than a final correction of this conversion (and saving this new file of course) - and then the final printing ...
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  #36  
Old 01-17-2011, 02:10 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
YOUR WAY:
a RGB file converted to the final (best) ICC profile during a printing process ... (with a soft proofing in the middle of the process to help to choose the best ICC profile)
Actually my way would be:
  1. Setup soft proof, pick preferred rendering intent.
  2. Turn on the simulate check boxes to show the proper contrast ratio soft proof.
  3. Duplicate the doc, have it setup with no soft proof (show before view).
  4. Target other doc that has soft proof on. Build a few adjustment layers to attempt to produce output specific corrections that make image look like the “before” preview (it will never match exactly but a few minor tweaks with levels and Hue/Sat can get it closer).
  5. Save those adjustment layers in Layer Group with name of output profile and rendering intent used.
  6. Convert to output color space and save off that iteration for output.
  7. Master wide gamut retouched doc has layer group with any number of output specific tweaks that are on or off when conversions will then take place.

This was all shown in one of the RetouchPro Webinars (I think the one on printing using Lightroom).
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  #37  
Old 01-17-2011, 02:23 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

OK. So you will touch the RGB file to get better conversion.

I would touch the final convesion as well. As this final file has a small (or narrow - or whatever) gamut I will try to make the best possible corrections here and as the final goal is to have one picture looking similar on all devices (as I wrote earlier) I will touch again the RGB file to get it closer to the CMYK file ... So this is my way how to deal with small color space if I need the picture to look similar everywhere - so a gamut warning tool is pretty useful for me
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  #38  
Old 01-17-2011, 02:28 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
OK. So you will touch the RGB file to get better conversion.
Yup.

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So this is my way how to deal with small color space if I need the picture to look similar everywhere - so a gamut warning tool is pretty useful for me
Not for me, it only blocks the view. It treats all out of gamut colors identically.
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  #39  
Old 01-17-2011, 02:32 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Not for me, it only blocks the view. It treats all out of gamut colors identically.
Yes, but you are able to see colors around the area or you can switch it on and off several times and you are able to get the info you are looking for ...
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  #40  
Old 01-17-2011, 02:36 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
Yes, but you are able to see colors around the area or you can switch it on and off several times and you are able to get the info you are looking for ...
There’s nothing around those colors I can think of I need to see. The soft proof shows me the final results of the gamut mapping. It shows me the in gamut colors as they will be remapped too. As yet, I still have no idea why seeing a red overlay blocking the image is in any way useful. Out of gamut colors get mapped no matter what. In gamut colors may as well. So I see that there is some overlay. I now do what to that area (or all areas) that the profile isn’t doing while I view the soft proof?
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