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Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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  #41  
Old 01-17-2011, 02:41 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

The goal is to see no gamut warning or very little areas affected - it means you should be within the new color space - as I understand. Yes, you will affect the other colors as well but you will correct it later ...
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  #42  
Old 01-17-2011, 02:44 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
The goal is to see no gamut warning or very little areas affected - it means you should be within the new color space - as I understand. Yes, you will affect the other colors as well but you will correct it later ...
Which is exactly what the profile will do. My point from the first post.
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  #43  
Old 01-17-2011, 02:50 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Which is exactly what the profile will do. My point from the first post.
Yes, but the color changes are under my control as I am touching each color in different way. The final conversion will be not same. The human factor ...
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  #44  
Old 01-17-2011, 03:50 PM
SilvaFox SilvaFox is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

The poor OP. If I were him, I'd run as fast and as far away as I could.

What did he ask anyway? Oh yeah. Something about oversaturated, out of gamut reds.
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  #45  
Old 01-17-2011, 04:48 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

Mark and Andrew,
In Photoshop there are almost always more than one tool and more than one way to accomplish a task. Like everyone, I have my personal preferences usually adopted after many hours of practical of work. When questioned about my preference of one over another, I present my reasons. Sometimes my bias is really high toward my method and I have difficulty seeing why someone would find the alternate technique preferable. In the end, others have their own results to obtain so I say - whatever gets you there.
I see this interchange as a similar situation and it conjures up an analogy.
Mark and Andrew are travelling down Interstate X and both want to maintain a speed of 50 MPH (80KPH if your on the metric system).
Mark has his car fitted with a speed governor so he can put his foot to the floor and not worrry about exceeding 50. Andrew revs his car up to 65MPH, turns on the cruise control and then presses the coast button until the speedometer reaches 50 at which point he releases the coast button. Both methods accomplish the task.
Personally, in practice I have found the Out of Gamut warning to be pretty useless. Often my same images go to vary different print devices - some small gamut, some medium gamut, and then to another high gamut PS workflow. I could never see myself limiting my editing to a single output device. I could never see myself redoing hours of work destined for narrow color space output when the customer comes back and subsequently wants output for a large gamut color space. Instead I maintain a 16 bit workflow, usually ProPhoto, retaining as much of the capture device as possible. In practice I find when soft proofing, one of the rendering intents provides a very acceptable view and I did not need to sacrifice a ton of saturation to avoid gamut warnings. For the rare time where the conversion causes a problem with detail in a specific area I can tweak an adjustment layer but I can see exactly the affected area in the Soft Proof window with out the need of the gamut warning. In fact, usually gamut warnings come up in many areas where there is no visual problem in the image. I find the OOG warnings to be a nuisance and of no real value.
That being said, Mark, I can understand why you and others would use them. They just have no value in my workflow.
Regards, Murray
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  #46  
Old 01-17-2011, 05:13 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by mistermonday View Post
When questioned about my preference of one over another, I present my reasons.
Thatís all Iíve asked of the Gamut Overlay proponents after I said the overlay was basically useless and told not so. Iím still not at all clear on what an overlay provides or the process that makes it useful but thatís fine, Iíll just continue to ignore it until shown otherwise.
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  #47  
Old 01-17-2011, 05:42 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Iím still not at all clear on what an overlay provides or the process that makes it useful but thatís fine, Iíll just continue to ignore it until shown otherwise.
The reason, why I wish to have a manual control over the conversion is to be able to work with colors in the "artistic" way. It means, if I would prepeare a photograph for an exhibition I would like to keep similar colors on all reproductions. I do not like oversaturated colors anyway. The other thing is a halftone or the scale of tones ... So if I have to work in a limited color space I would like to be aware of its limits.

I understand, that most of the people here will work in the way of "color reproduction" - which means they do not have to care about the "color mood" too much.

Colors Psychology in Theory and Art:
http://livingartsoriginals.com/infoc...sychology.html

I do not push anyone to use gamut warning but I have foud this tool very useful in my workflow and I am happy this tool is still there.
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  #48  
Old 01-17-2011, 05:42 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

Ok in order then …

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Once again, you are unclear and one would assume purposely vague. Print can be…
I have not been 'purposely vague' at all. You are supposed to know what the print output is likely to be very roughly, and you have that profile set up in your color settings. In my case Fogra 39 or sometimes SWOP for the US market most of the time. The vast majority of people here will be outputting for a gloss stock. This provides a good enough ballpark for Gamut Warning and Proof setup to be useful. And is much better than just ignoring profiling, and retouching in an enormous space like Pro-Photo, which you seem to be in practice suggesting. Unfortunately you are very much in the minority, if you are seriously suggesting this. Because most color professionals, including the late Bruce Fraser would not recommend it. For very good reason.

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using the incorrect terminology and explaining the roles of rendering intents incorrectly is no excuse.
Ah so its about terminology now is it. Fair enough, thats better than being accused of misinformation. Ok simply then, and not couched in techno-babble for the insecure - there are two intents of value to practicing Retouchers, Relative and Perceptual. Perceptual adjusts the colors within the image to attempt to create a 'smooth' and perceptually accurate conversion, but is more liable to undersaturate colors within the in-gamut areas of the image. Which is precisely as I said before. Relative …

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First off, the idea it does a bad job is simply untrue for all conversions using all profiles.
Thats extending the argument, into an area I didn't make. For many profiles it is damaging and flattens the saturated color extremes into unmodulated flat areas. And causing banding in the transitions. This can be clearly seen by running a simple spectrum grad or taking an image and converting it to CMYK, and then viewing the result using a solar curve. This example also demonstrates the unwiseness of retouching without this knowledge in very subtle, saturated areas, in a space like ProPhoto RGB or even the more sensible Adobe RGB.

That is the practical tradeoff between Relative and Perceptual, both compromises. As I said when i first brought up the distinction.

Quote:
Sloppy
Maybe, but certainly not bad advice for anyone deciding whether to use Perceptual or Relative to convert their images. You have then gone on, to unecessarily regurgitate information which I, and many others here, will already be aware of.

Which all brings us to the main point …

Quote:
In a nutshell yes.
So lets summarize then. This method of color correction and working with color that you propose means that its practically impossible to see colors on your monitor that resemble in any way how they will appear in print. Because most people don't know what Proof Setup is, or does. The Rendering Intents, are depended on to squeeze whatever into CMYK. This process in its practical application, unfortunately, at a stroke, invalidates your whole argument.

Your implied viewpoint that is that on screen proofing has no value. And that everyone should be retouching in high gamut RGB spaces, with no reference to, or awareness of the CMYK destination. This is both in terms of basic advice and technique, incorrect I'm afraid. And it is not a viewpoint supported by most color professionals.

Last edited by Markzebra; 01-17-2011 at 05:51 PM.
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  #49  
Old 01-17-2011, 05:44 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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I said the overlay was basically useless and told not so.
Yes, its not basically useless.
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  #50  
Old 01-17-2011, 05:51 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
The reason, why I wish to have a manual control over the conversion is to be able to work with colors in the "artistic" way.
You donít have manual control over the conversion other than picking a rendering intent!

You have control over the data prior to the conversion, fine. No argument. I do this as well. So again, you see the overlay. It tells you something is out of gamut. Then what?

Or you invoke a soft proof and again, while in the RGB wider gamut space, you see what the image should look like IF you convert.

In either case, you can obviously edit the image. In one case you see the image as it would appear if you convert in its entirety. In the 2nd case, you could see the same thing, but all out of gamut colors are hidden by an overlay.

Given the two scenarioís, how is having the image blocked useful and what do you then do?

Again, having a manual approach to editing an image isnít the debate here. Having a view that blocks what you are seeing, and how you deal with it hasnít been described nor how that is in any way helpful. Any out of gamut colors, no matter what you do with or without the overlay get converted (clipped) upon conversion. Messing around prior to the conversion is one thing, but anything out of gamut gets affected, its as simple as that. Other colors get affected too.


Quote:
I do not push anyone to use gamut warning but I have foud this tool very useful in my workflow and I am happy this tool is still there.
Specifically why and how is whatís missing.
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