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Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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  #61  
Old 01-18-2011, 07:50 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

Thank you, Murray, for your reply. I hope you would agree with me if I would say you are always limited and is good to be aware of your boundaries and then is up to your decision if you overstep them or not ...
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  #62  
Old 01-18-2011, 09:07 AM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5nap5hot View Post
Ok I have another question!
Is it more important to look at the proof colors and make sure that the image looks good, or is it better to reduce the saturation according to the gamut warning?
Good question! With the Soft Proof on, assuming a properly calibrated display and a good output profile, you are seeing a good representation of the printed image on an emissive display (those differences need to be understood, they will never match 100% without breaking the law of physics). The simulation is very close however. With the gamut overlay, lots of colors are hidden by the overlay. I still have no idea why that’s at all useful, even with the soft proof on. Might as well take a Sharpie and paint on your display as blocking the soft proof doesn’t seem at all useful to me but I await from others why this would be useful.

You don’t have to reduce the saturation of the working space doc just to alter the gamut for the destination color space (for print), the profile will do that. You just view the soft proof and edit if necessary based on how you like the image appearance with the simulation. You edit based on what you see as I explained above using adjustment layers. Colors in gamut, colors out of gamut, a mix of both may need tweaking based on the soft proof but not based solely on the gamut. Again, the profile which is producing the soft proof you are looking at does this as you view the image.

The idea that there are out of gamut colors in the working space and you have to manually alter the gamut (and worse, based on a blob of color) is unnecessary in a modern ICC aware application, period. View the simulation the profile produces and edit the image based on what it shows you, not based solely on some colors that are out of gamut.

Last edited by andrewrodney; 01-18-2011 at 09:13 AM.
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  #63  
Old 01-18-2011, 12:26 PM
samimg samimg is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

Wow, what a thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
With the gamut overlay, lots of colors are hidden by the overlay. I still have no idea why that’s at all useful, even with the soft proof on. Might as well take a Sharpie and paint on your display as blocking the soft proof doesn’t seem at all useful to me but I await from others why this would be useful.
I'd just say I find the gamut warning useful as I can toggle it on and off, it doesn't really matter if it covers each out of gamut colour equally. To see the how it will probably pan out I'd toggle soft proof.

And no Sharpie pen, or any pen for that matter gets anywhere near my Eizo display.
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  #64  
Old 01-18-2011, 02:40 PM
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Markzebra Markzebra is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

Trying hard as possible to ignore the "English may be your 2nd language" for the moment…

Quote:
So NOW you’ll provide a step by step process with an explanation of how the overlay for the gamut warning is useful?
Its useful because it provides a quick and crude overview of what is out of gamut within any intended CMYK profile. Simple, and still useful. Not for you perhaps, but for many. And its obviously not supposed to be left permanently on, as you keep suggesting, its a keyboard accessed toggle.

There are certain ranges of subtle, saturated color that will not convert properly to CMYK even within a sensible space like Adobe RGB. Even more of a problem if dealing a massive gamut space like ProPhotoRGB. So to recommend this as a default working space, without warnings of 16 or 8 bit - and the potential problems that editing within a high gamut space like this may cause, is an idealists, and a technicians viewpoint of color. Not one unfortunately that pays any attention to the real world.

Adobe RGB (and his own version "Bruce RGB") were spaces recommended by Bruce Fraser, for people working for print. Because, although imperfect, these spaces at least try and represent the gamut available for print. The issues have not changed since then. Apart from perhaps, the more ready availability of 16 bit editing. He argued the point directly that these spaces were preferable for those working for print.

Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately you are very much in the minority, if you are seriously suggesting this.
And that makes your points technically correct? The sentence is moot.
Good, well because its without doubt a fact, I'll choose to take that as a concession. At no point has anyone said its "not useful". Only that its not a default, and for the reasons now very painstakingly pointed out, shouldn't be.

Quote:
Most people? You’ve decided this is a fact how?
Because I work in studios, where no one (or hardly anyone) has any idea what proof setup means or does. They know from experience just about, that they need to calibrate their monitor. They are creatives, that is their, and my job. All they need is a workable, reliable, and successful system to use, that allows them to produce the good results they are used to. What they don't need, to use MisterMondays analogy, is a car where someone has just removed the breaks.

Quote:
Your ideas about these rendering intents are incorrect
They are not in the slightest bit incorrect, that has been dealt with in detail by me before. You may indeed be choosing to read them incorrectly for some reason, but that's your problem.

The unanswered point I made several times, about the value of working in a reasonable space like Adobe RGB, for proofing the images, and client review, in a workflow designed completely for print, still stands.
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  #65  
Old 01-18-2011, 02:55 PM
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

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Originally Posted by Markzebra View Post
Its useful because it provides a quick and crude overview of what is out of gamut within any intended CMYK profile. Simple, and still useful.
Yes, I’ve heard that message before. HOW its useful hasn’t been specified. What you do with a blob of solid-ish color that shows out of gamut colors and what you do now, that the profile will not isn’t at all clear. The message is “its useful because you can see what’s out of gamut”. OK so considering all those colors will disappear when you use the profile, how was it useful? Now you see it, now you don’t.

Quote:
There are certain ranges of subtle, saturated color that will not convert properly to CMYK even within a sensible space like Adobe RGB.
What does that mean properly? And how is having the blob of color better than just seeing the effect of the color (presumably improper) and just editing the color, using whatever tools and techniques you have built instead of looking at the blob? This has yet to be explained!

Quote:
Even more of a problem if dealing a massive gamut space like ProPhotoRGB.
So prove that point with a demo we can follow.

Quote:
Adobe RGB (and his own version "Bruce RGB") were spaces recommended by Bruce Fraser, for people working for print.
That’s as incorrect as the last post you made about Bruce. FWIW, PRIOR to his recommendation and the creation of ProPhoto RGB, Bruce abandoned BruceRGB. In favor of ProPhoto RGB!

Quote:
Because, although imperfect, these spaces at least try and represent the gamut available for print.
Another simplistic and incorrect statement. Print to what? There’s a huge difference in gamut between Print for CMYK halftone output (and the myriad of such devices) and a 12 color ink jet, also a print device.

Quote:
The issues have not changed since then.
The kinds of printers, their colorants and their gamut have changed tremendously since then.

Quote:
Because I work in studios, where no one (or hardly anyone) has any idea what proof setup means or does.
Your point being you work with uneducated users of Photoshop. Congratulations.

Quote:
The unanswered point I made several times, about the value of working in a reasonable space like Adobe RGB, for proofing the images, and client review, in a workflow designed completely for print, still stands.
Reasonable because you say so, but for many users going to many printing devices, less than ideal. Any modern pigmented ink jet being a an example.
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  #66  
Old 01-20-2011, 08:46 PM
5nap5hot 5nap5hot is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

I picked up the photo from the photolab today.

The printed photo looks very reddish in hue compared to what appears on my monitor for the file. I am not sure if it is the file itself... or the lab screwed it up.

Maybe I am doing something wrong in my conversion for print. When I prepare a print file, this is what I do:
1. Convert from 16bit to 8bit.
2. Convert to profile sRGB (this is what photolabs request as the color space)
3. Save as jpg

and when I create webfiles, I go into image size and adjust the dpi to 72 and adjust the size and save it.


I am growing concerned because a model sent me a link to her page at an agency in Milan and the photos of her that I took have that reddish look too. I am like WTH... I have been doing my jpgs like this for years and never had an issue.
My monitor is an expensive one and I calibrate it regularly.

I asked for it to be color corrected. Maybe that is the problem... the model's skin is supposed to be very pale and now it looks pinky.
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  #67  
Old 01-21-2011, 04:14 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5nap5hot View Post
Maybe I am doing something wrong in my conversion for print. When I prepare a print file, this is what I do:
1. Convert from 16bit to 8bit.
2. Convert to profile sRGB (this is what photolabs request as the color space)
3. Save as jpg

and when I create webfiles, I go into image size and adjust the dpi to 72 and adjust the size and save it.
- it should be OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5nap5hot View Post
I am growing concerned because a model sent me a link to her page at an agency in Milan and the photos of her that I took have that reddish look too. I am like WTH... I have been doing my jpgs like this for years and never had an issue.
My monitor is an expensive one and I calibrate it regularly.

I asked for it to be color corrected. Maybe that is the problem... the model's skin is supposed to be very pale and now it looks pinky.
Some screens on cheap monitors & laptops have this color shift. You can calibrate your monitor as you wish, you can play with your colors as you wish, you can convert it to the best color space - but when someone is watching it on a cheap and uncorrected monitor (I am not saying uncalibrated) ???

And also the person sitting behind the photolab computer - if they will decide to color correct the picture to their personal taste?

Are you on Mac? Could you post your image here? Some photolabs have their own ICC profiles available on their webpage.
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  #68  
Old 01-21-2011, 08:11 AM
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mistermonday mistermonday is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5nap5hot View Post
I picked up the photo from the photolab today.

The printed photo looks very reddish in hue compared to what appears on my monitor for the file. I am not sure if it is the file itself... or the lab screwed it up.

Maybe I am doing something wrong in my conversion for print. When I prepare a print file, this is what I do:
1. Convert from 16bit to 8bit.
2. Convert to profile sRGB (this is what photolabs request as the color space)
3. Save as jpg

and when I create webfiles, I go into image size and adjust the dpi to 72 and adjust the size and save it.


I am growing concerned because a model sent me a link to her page at an agency in Milan and the photos of her that I took have that reddish look too. I am like WTH... I have been doing my jpgs like this for years and never had an issue.
My monitor is an expensive one and I calibrate it regularly.

I asked for it to be color corrected. Maybe that is the problem... the model's skin is supposed to be very pale and now it looks pinky.
Numbers never lie. In Photoshop's Info Palette, set one of the two eyedropper views to LAB, but do not actually change the image mode to LAB. Move your eyedropper around the image and particularly examone white / neutral / black areas - the A and B values should be at or close to 0,0. Examine skin - if the A value is higher than the B value then your skin will begin to be pink / magenta. If the B value is > A, you skin will become more yellow. If the numbers of the output image show that an area is magenta, then it will print magenta regardless of what your monitor shows (assuming the printer is doing its job properly).
Try having a test image printed at a reliable printer. Then use it as a reference to examine your edited images. You can check the R,G,B values of your image against the test image on your display, then see what those numbers relate to in the test print.
Regards, Murray
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  #69  
Old 01-21-2011, 08:50 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

You can also do a quick visual test. In the case that those numbers from mistermonday's post are correct - this could be a way how to test a photolab's printer or your customer's screen:

Open a new file in Photoshop. Select all and fill with the 50% gray color. Save it for web and print. Place it on the webpage and print a hard copy. Gray should stay gray everywhere. In the case your monitor is OK - you can explain to your customers that the fault is not on your side.
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  #70  
Old 01-21-2011, 09:02 AM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: Newb: out of gamut colors and color shift

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5nap5hot View Post
The printed photo looks very reddish in hue compared to what appears on my monitor for the file. I am not sure if it is the file itself... or the lab screwed it up.
Is the display calibrated properly, for a print viewing match? See:http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...too_dark.shtml

Did you get a profile from the lab to soft proof the image prior to print and were you able to use it to convert to the printer output space? If not, all bets are off.
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