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Are these Realistic Rates?

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  #31  
Old 02-21-2011, 10:02 PM
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garibaldi garibaldi is offline
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Re: Are these Realistic Rates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
I am sure this video was created for garibaldi:

http://hiendworkshops.com/2010/12/09...n-blaise-cakes

No, this one is more appropriate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INcW26-iyqU
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  #32  
Old 02-22-2011, 03:36 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Are these Realistic Rates?

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Originally Posted by garibaldi View Post
No, this one is more appropriate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INcW26-iyqU
I do not agree
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  #33  
Old 02-22-2011, 03:57 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Are these Realistic Rates?

I do remember how difficult was to get those informations for myself. It is not easy to ask the others and for everyone is better if we pass our knowledge to younger generation. All of us are complaining what is happening around but we should ask ourselves what we did to try to improve this situation. What rate will you ask for if you do not have any information and you understand you can not charge over $100 as you are on the beginning of your professional carrer? And only one advice is coming from the Asia - be cheap ???
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  #34  
Old 02-24-2011, 03:48 PM
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garibaldi garibaldi is offline
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Re: Are these Realistic Rates?

Well, i basically didnt mince words on this, and flat out said that she was way too low with her rate. the only reason that anyone would charge that little would be if they werent taking it seriously, had no skill, or had no investment into it whether it be time, or equipment. I certainly wasnt trying to hide the info from her, or anyone for that matter, but at the same time, im not going to hide the fact that i think youre an idiot for setting your rates at such a ridiculously low rate which has far further impact and reach on the industry than the paltry $10 an image you would plan to make. its not about creating a false market or devalue retouching, its a service, a skill, and something that adds value to the final product. if you want to undersell it to try and break in and feel like your busy, then that wont last long if it ever got off the ground to begin with. i may not have laid it out there with my wording on a bed of roses, but i was more trying to slam home the fact that it is ill advised to go and provide that kind of service in a high end arena and do it for pennies. unless thats where you want to play. in the end, its a free country, you can do what you want, but i dont think that its neccessarily smart or beneficial to cut your teeth working fro bread crumbs to try and break in. youll create your own rut. youre better off working at a retouch house, or getting an education or working under someone to get yourself up to speed and make more money while doing so. that would be like me doing $10 portraits, just becaseu i want to be busy. its not worth it, id rather stay in bed. sure theres nothing wrong with being hungry and trying to break in , maybe do things for less for a period, but eventually that needs to change. how easy do you think it would be when the day comes when you are trying to bridge the gap between your $10 retouch and a $300/hr retouch that you could easily have a full 8 hours into? how are you going to explan or justify that?
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  #35  
Old 02-24-2011, 04:09 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Are these Realistic Rates?

garibaldi, I hope you understand I do not agree with jessica's first cheap rates ... but she came here and asked for our opinion as she is new to this business.

What about photographers who are able to ask for $100.000 per day? How they have reached this point? And how old are they? And how many of them are here?
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  #36  
Old 03-01-2011, 11:35 PM
MrRyan MrRyan is offline
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Re: Are these Realistic Rates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by garibaldi View Post
No, this one is more appropriate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INcW26-iyqU
I agree, this video is more appropriate. Did you notice all of the full grown zebras that lion ran by to attack the little one?

In the same way Jessica is trying to cut her teeth on smaller prey, which is what's necessary to begin. Yes, a retouch house or similar is the best bet, to assure your retouching career begins on the right foot: lots of experience and concentrated learning. However, at the moment, I believe she's still earning her degree, which brings challenges of it's own. It's difficult to get hired at a retouching house while in school (internships are great though.)

Christian could be referred to as what some call an @sshole. Certainly he won't contest that, as he gets some enjoyment from it. And I won't pretend I'm flowers and unicorns and paint crimson letters on anyone, sometimes I crank it to 11 as well. Some of us thrive on tough love, some of us don't. Some of us subject others to it, and, well I guess that's the end of that thought.

However, if you visit his site (and I strongly recommend you do), you'll see the projects he's working with and the caliber of imagery/clients he's working with are very impressive. It would be safer than a baby wrapped in bubble wrap (can it breath though?) to assume the rates are also very impressive. I bet if you asked Christian how he got into building hi-end race engines, you'd find a gruff, bloody knuckled man from his past, verbally beating him for buying Pennzoil as opposed to Royal Purple tranny fluid.

Point being, you NEED to make mistakes. No one can help you learn as well what you'll experience yourself. To Christian, myself and others, those rates might get me to open one bloodshot eye to glance at the clock and see what time you've woken me up, but don't count on both eyes. Most importantly, don't follow retouching trends. I'm sure many of the professionals on this site will complain to you that the state of the industry is dire, as many retouchers are using competitive pricing structures to get work. Truth of the matter is, you don't have to acknowledge it, or have a strong reaction to it. Simply side step it, try out your ideas in retouching AND business, and hold yourself accountable to achieving profitable results.

So, don't get caught up in competitive pricing, per/image rates (for anything less than filters, which you'll only accept work for in the beginning), or quotes without an understanding of the work involved. Continually hone your skillset, charge what you feel you're worth, and be eloquently honest and firm. The clients that respond favorably, are the clients you want.

Jessica, this early in your career, you're going to not know things, and you should ask for advice, but only as much as you test the waters in the real world for yourself. (Oh hi, run on sentence!) Don't mention price till you've viewed the work, and remember that right now, money is second to the experience. Notice how many different facets of imagery Christian and others are involved in? Keep your feet wet, explore every avenue you can, and get out of your comfort zone and fail. Start here: Email 5 prospective wedding photographers for work, respond to the first one that replies and say: "I'm available to assist you with your imagery, here's my portfolio (link), and my rate is $30/hr." Then, they'll probably tell you to get lost and scoff at you. Perfect. You'll get a rejection under your belt and realize that it doesn't hurt or matter. That's GREAT tough love. This is YOUR career, no one else can affect it other than you. How do you charge $30/$50/$100/$500 per hour? You'll know when you're worth it.

Christian, I chastise you for calling a beginner an idiot, and at the same time want to invite you to a beer, shoot the proverbial $hit, and try to identify makes and models solely by exhaust note.

Great discussion everyone!

Last edited by MrRyan; 03-01-2011 at 11:49 PM.
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  #37  
Old 03-02-2011, 06:27 AM
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garibaldi garibaldi is offline
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Re: Are these Realistic Rates?

Haha..... well.... ok... I can come off like an asshole, true. but im a good guy, honest. I was brought up through life and in my careers with lots of tough love, tons of it. I mean, I was getting big giant hugs of tough love at times. and quite frankly, while at the time it sucked, made me frustrated and want to cry, it also fortified my drive and toughened my hide and positioned me with a sense of motivation and desire that had I not been treated that way, would I have gotten to where I am today. Whether it was when I was working on cars, or now as a photographer. True, it can be the crappiest tasting medicine to swallow at the time, but I look back on it and realize that it served more good to me than did harm. I really wasnt trying to be mean or a douche bag to Jessica, but as a beginner I think its important for her to understand that things you do now will shape the path you take from here on in. So all I wanted to send home was that you shouldnt give it away , or undersell yourself. not only will it stall her in her path to get to where she ultimately wants to (assuming that this is what she is looking to pursue on a higher level) but also can impact the industry and lend to sending a ripple effect out that diminishes the sense of value that clients can place on things such as retouching. thats all I was trying to get across.

Its one thing to be hungry, and have competitive rates, but its another to be way off the mark. Her rates are as such, that yes, I used the word idiot, not so much as a judgement upon her, but more upon the idea that she originally had thrown out there that those were the fees she was thinking of setting for herself. I can tell you tons of stories when I started out in my career where I had no clue and took on projects jsut to say yes, and feel like part of something, and the compensation was so low, that after all was done, I looked at what I had pt into it vs what I had sitting in front of me in terms of compensation, and I began to realize, shit, I am going nowhere with this. That is not to say that at times I still wont do something on spec- clarify!!!.....for myself, to try out an idea I may have, as some of the work on my site is such a thing. but the lack of monetary gains on something sometimes isnt the whole picture, its having that experience and final product in my arsenal that brings value to the table.

I do thank you for the positive comments on my work, thank you ;-)

You do have to admit though, there are more responses to the way I laid it out there on this thread both from jessica and everyone else vs if i had been more subtle and gentle with my words. It stirred the soup up and kicked the discussion in the balls. I have no problem being the facilitator of that, even if it makes me come off like not the nicest guy. I assure you though, I only have the best intentions in mind. I would want anyone to succeed!
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  #38  
Old 03-27-2011, 01:27 PM
Tattrpuff Tattrpuff is offline
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Re: Are these Realistic Rates?

This thread has been very informative, and struck a debate. Which in turn shows, no one price is right for any one person or any one region. I can see how people would get upset at Christian's approach to a beginner, but as a person who thrives off of touch love...I thoroughly appreciate it. Not everyone is like that I realize, but you take what you can out of ever situation. Thanks for the info guys!
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  #39  
Old 03-28-2011, 01:40 AM
Jobu Jobu is offline
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Re: Are these Realistic Rates?

Great info here. If I was looking for a retoucher without having examples to look at and they told me $10bucks a pic, as a client I would keep on searching and never look back. Through years of life lessons we learn that "if it's to good to be true, then it usually is" and "you get what you pay for". Sometimes cheap isn't good. But like the other posters said, there are so many variables.
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  #40  
Old 04-01-2011, 03:44 PM
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Vernon Vernon is offline
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Re: Are these Realistic Rates?

garibaldi, just want to say your plain-speak approach is spot on and I for one agree with it.
generally speaking, nowhere does it state that one should have to perform "verbal cradling" when a simple to the point commentary can convey an idea/thought/opinion efficiently.
How the recipient party interprets your input is not up to you to address.

And, your advice rings true on many levels in this (and other related) field.
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