Better D&B using curves (need advice)

[drode]

I currently D&B using a 50% gray layer set to soft light. It works but I have some issues that I'm not sure how to address and I could really use some advice.

First is the edges between lighter and darker areas. Be it small scale changes like darkening the light side and lightening the dark side of a blemish or wrinkle or something larger scale like toning/contouring, I really have trouble getting the edges to blend. Removing a shadow or highlight, for example, I can never seem to get a smooth soft transition edge.

Secondly (and maybe related), I'd like to be able to better target light, medium and dark areas. The idea is to restrict the dodging or burning to certain levels of luminance as well as a more global adjustment. I don't have any problem using multiple layers for this. Somewhat like the way the dodge and burn tool works.

Lastly (and again probably related), I've not had any success using curves adjustment layers for D&B. The result always seems to look awful. I could really use some tips on how to pull up or pull down the curve when making a D&B curves adj layer. What should I be looking for to confirm I'm brightening/darkening the right tones by the right amount?

I'm not really looking for an easier or faster way to do D&B. I'm trying to figure out how be better in general and use more flexible techniques.

Thanks in advance

-D

[Pari Retouch]

You can give this a try, I personally liked this technique very much and now I use it in all my retouches, in this post MP Retouch have explained this technique of d&b very nicely.

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?th...1#post15519853


Hope this helps

[Boneappetit]

Hi drode:

Both techniques work fine, depending on the image. Using curves gives you more flexibility, it is a longer process thou...-(Here you can use an action). Using 50% gray layer set to soft light is a faster way to do it. Perhaps what you need to do is the "spatial frequency separation" process (clean the skin) before you get into the D&B, it will help you to apply D&B later, because you will not need large amount of dodging and burning while keeping the texture intact.

[drode]

I followed the link and that particular thread appears to be about frequency separation. I use FS on all my retouches but I also use D&B.

Originally Posted by Pari Retouch

You can give this a try, I personally liked this technique very much and now I use it in all my retouches, in this post MP Retouch have explained this technique of d&b very nicely.

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?th...1#post15519853


Hope this helps

UPDATE: I've read that thread a couple of times now. Despite the fact that it's not specifically about D&B, there is a lot of good information there. Every time I use or read about FS, I pick up some new way of using it. It's not so much a technique as a tool with multiple uses

[drode]

Thanks. This is what I do currently. I almost always work on cleaning up the skin first and then move on to D&B. The D&B works but, as I mentioned, I have some issues with the transitions and I think curves (done properly) would give me more control and flexibility.

Originally Posted by Boneappetit

Hi drode:
Perhaps what you need to do is the "spatial frequency separation" process (clean the skin) before you get into the D&B, it will help you to apply D&B later, because you will not need large amount of dodging and burning while keeping the texture intact.

[Boneappetit]

Originally Posted by drode

Thanks. This is what I do currently. I almost always work on cleaning up the skin first and then move on to D&B. The D&B works but, as I mentioned, I have some issues with the transitions and I think curves (done properly) would give me more control and flexibility.

Yes, I currently use the 50% gray layer in soft light mode, but maybe you are having the same problem that I have.. I don't know about Highlights and Shadows or drawings since I'm not a graphic artist... I guess I'm doing a little bit better now, after a year or so and lots and lots of practice... Before going into the D & B thing, I just study the image and try to figure where does it need D or B in a very natural way. Creating 2 eye help layers, also helps a lot... One dark curve layer, and a white solid color layer in color mode... These 2 layers are only for help purpose, when I'm done with the D&B i delete them. Then I re-do the spatial freq. separation, and clip a Brightness and Contrast to the HF layer in order to get a nice sharp effect.

[madclark]

1. For soft edges I have a couple of suggestions. First make sure you're using a soft brush. Second, make sure you flow is set very low, like 1-3%. Third, if you're not using a tablet, get one. Even the cheapest is better than trying to use a mouse.

2. I think you'll give yourself more headache from trying to target levels like you suggest. You would have to set up a very complicated work flow and I don't think you'd really be that happy. You're better off getting an automated system like Portrait Professional.

3. I still think you're looking for something a little more automated than D&B retouching is intended. You should set the levels and then blend in the retouch. It's going to be very difficult to target certain levels. You should set the levels to below where you'll need to blend down to. You may be able to use a color selection to help find this point, but the work is still in the D&B, not a magical levels setting.

Wish I could help more but D&B retouching is more an art than a science and truly requires the necessary time to develop the technique and apply it well.

[eraanexact]

This might come across as sacrilege, but I do my dodging and burning with the actual dodge and burn tools right on the layer.

I know, that's considered destructive retouching. Here's how to get around that:

My files always have the base layer that is completely unretouched. I copy that up and do any liquifying/shaping. Then I copy up the liquified/shaped layer, and this is the layer that gets all the cloning and dodge and burn. So if I ever go too far, I have the layer beneath it to fall back on. All my color curves go on top of these three layers as adjustment layers. Very simple.

For me personally, I have the dodge tool set to midtones, the brush is pressure sensitive, and the exposure is set to 7%. Same with the burn tool, except that my exposure there is set to 3%.

Doing d&b right on the layer gives me more flexibility with how light or dark I need to go without having to add extra d&b curves. And when I get weird color casts from dodging (usually goes kinda blueish grey), I put my clone stamp on "color" mode, reduce my brush opacity, and lightly clone the appropriate color back into the affected area.
I'm not the only professional doing it like this, either.

[onceinarow]

eraanexact:
you can use the dodge/burn tools the same way on the usual grey filled layer with softlight blend mode and it becomes non destructive plus u can see what u have done a lot easier.

[amica999]

Have a look here: http://nataliataffarel.tumblr.com/po...rted-high-pass - just don't use it all over the face :-)

Oh and one more: have a look at Jonas' supporting layers. I use them all the time :-)

https://www.youtube.com/user/jonaswt.../6/voZOc_Spx64

There are 2 parts!!

[ray12]

D+B is always a tough uphill battle to gain working skill with. A lot of people feel your agnst.

With the pure, raw D+B tools in the earlier versions of Photoshop... there used to always be a slight yellowish or brownish artifact that would get left behind in the retouched areas... and those brown spots would always dirty up and further complicate the retouch. You ended up having to go in after that discoloration too...in addition to the D+B.

Then in CS5 they now have the "Protect Tones" switch on the D+B tools so that this extraneous color artifacting is strongly reduced...Thank you Adobe! If you dont have protect tones checked...then you will most likely have some stray pixels to further clean up. It helps with artifacting in the raw tools.

Using curves is a great alternative method of lightening and darkening pixels before and after a pimple or pore...but the curve itself is "non linear" at its ends... and it tends to introduce some slight contrast bump and a "slight saturation boost" of its own. Have you ever noticed that enhanced contrast effect on just a standard adjustment layer? You ended up getting a slight contrast and saturation gain in addition to the lightness gain you were looking for. Its almost like your tools are giving you two steps ahead...one step back.

There are two things you could try to reduce introducing that slight contrast and saturation bump:

1.) Bring up the end points of the curve so they are parallel to the linear center-line. Make the curve straight...it will now add lightness without adding the increased contrast as well.

2.) Some other people use the "luminosity blend mode" instead of the "soft light" blend mode when using a straight curve based D+B methodology. You will notice that "luminosity blend mode" lightens up the base image...but introduces less contrast and saturation gain with the correction. (Check this look out on just a regular adjustment layer). It still lightens the pimple pixel...but the unwanted contrast and saturation bump are reduced.

These two tricks of straightening the curve out in one case...and using a luminosity blend mode to reduce cross color gain...sometimes makes the dodge tool effect more pure in its application...and introduces less unexpected and unwanted color, contrast and saturation artifacts in the process.

D+B is hard enough to master without painting with a tool that also adds in its own unwanted twists.

Ray12