Does this retouching looks unnatural?

[nebulaoperator]

Hello everyone,

Recently I had a chance to work on the test image client paid me for it too. Image came as B&W with lots of artifacts and plenty of lost detail especially in the shadow area.JPEG. I could hardly find any remains of texture just a random pixel representing it. Nevertheless I gave my shot. I almost avoided doing any hair as I had time limit and practically no detail in the hair in particular left side. Anyway clients response was : it is not the style of B&W I am after further commenting that he is after the natural look Here I got smile in my face. Does it really looks so unnatural? Thanks
link to larger file: http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1312135073

[Godmother]

Leave the image- go away - come back after looking at real people -look at the image again - yes it looks fake

[nebulaoperator]

You made me smile I suppose I overdone DnB?


Edit: for know I wait for a day or two and come back later to see image in a different perspective.
Meanwhile I would appreciate constrictive critique. I am really ,,blind,, at the moment. I sense that something is not right.too plastic, image looks flat.The other thing I am not sure if I did right lighting for the linen.
Thank you

[Godmother]

Originally Posted by nebulaoperator

I sense that something is not right.too plastic, image looks flat.The other thing I am not sure if I did right lighting for the linen.
Thank you

He said is not the style he is looking for - I usually ask for references before starting any job.

The problem is with the retouch you removed the shadows in the cheek - that shadow gave the image depth

x

[nebulaoperator]

Originally Posted by Godmother

He said is not the style he is looking for - I usually ask for references before starting any job.

The problem is with the retouch you removed the shadows in the cheek - that shadow gave the image depth

x

My attempt was contouring. I found cheek too low but what i did eventually flattened it. Now i miss some contrast too. Thank you Nat

[women'sdesk]

It's pretty simple the photo looked blurred in the face and overall a bit flat. There was a missed opportunity to enhance the rest of the photo with dramatic lighting, shadows and contrast. Could have done about 90% of this in lightroom, then just enhanced the face subtly in PS and sent it off!! Did you really dodge and burn or did you do something weird with frequency separation? I don't understand how it got that blurry, I know that it can get a little shiny and soft looking with d&b but that was outright blurry lol!

[nebulaoperator]

I did a split but treated skin carefully.This is how it looked before D&B. http://s1119.photobucket.com/albums/...dgeandburn.jpg
This one sample is done with: split treatment the stamp layer. Then stamp layer got on the final one(blurry/plasticy) used fx blending. What i found difficult right from the start that image did not have defined highlights mid tones and shadows. all looked very dull to me and i struggled to enhance lights, mid tones and shadows in the face.
http://s1119.photobucket.com/albums/...ct2blendif.jpg

[Chain]

On your first post it is over-done (it can be easy to go "retouch-blind" while working on it). I tend to overdo things myself but they always turn out alright when I dial them back to something like 50% (turning things on/off is useful, as well as a little break from the image).

The last image you posted (previous post) looks a lot better than the first (in original post). The highlights don't seem that overdone/fake/plastic-like.
I would show this to the client. Perhaps you can also get him to provide some examples/references of the "natural" look he is thinking of.

[nebulaoperator]

Originally Posted by Chain

On your first post it is over-done (it can be easy to go "retouch-blind" while working on it). I tend to overdo things myself but they always turn out alright when I dial them back to something like 50% (turning things on/off is useful, as well as a little break from the image).

The last image you posted (previous post) looks a lot better than the first (in original post). The highlights don't seem that overdone/fake/plastic-like.
I would show this to the client. Perhaps you can also get him to provide some examples/references of the "natural" look he is thinking of.

hi Chain,

I can't believe it I overdone it to a such level. I think spent too much time staring at it
Client did provide me reference here it is.
I found lighting on reference photo much better while on my image it's all soft and hardly defined.

[women'sdesk]

Don't show anything to the client lol!! If you send the same work again that they don't want they will think your'e annoying and arrogant, haha!! which obviously you're not, because you seem very self aware and eager to learn on here. Maybe just stay away from stamp and healing tools etc until you have mastered d&b. Can i just make sure you are also dodging and burning with curve layers and not dodge tool etc? Because i know it sounds like a stupid question but even Amy Dresser used to do it that way not so long ago... If you want to do more dramatic stuff with the rest of the photo, retouch in raw switching between lightroom and ps. Have a look at piet van den eynde's black and white stuff and maybe buy some books or a tutorial.

[kav]

I wouldn't totally stay away from the clone stamp. Zits, stray hairs, and really tiny blemishes can be removed in this manner. Obviously I can't see all the detail in these relatively small images. If you zoom out on the before to where you can see all of it, take note of the things you don't like. On a separate layer make some annotations to indicate what is bothering you during this period of examination. I'd start off with the heavy lifting. Anything major, time consuming, or difficult should be done first. Take a short break after this and look over the image when you return to ensure it's not overdone. If it is fix whatever is overdone at that point. If it's feeling pretty good, make sure you take care of any zits or whatever, and start on the small DB work. Zoom out to examine your work frequently to ensure that it's smooth and that you aren't overdoing anything. Unless you have a specific look in mind for the work it's best to leave it slightly less retouched than overdo the work.

[nebulaoperator]

Originally Posted by women'sdesk

Don't show anything to the client lol!! If you send the same work again that they don't want they will think your'e annoying and arrogant, haha!! which obviously you're not, because you seem very self aware and eager to learn on here. Maybe just stay away from stamp and healing tools etc until you have mastered d&b. Can i just make sure you are also dodging and burning with curve layers and not dodge tool etc? Because i know it sounds like a stupid question but even Amy Dresser used to do it that way not so long ago... If you want to do more dramatic stuff with the rest of the photo, retouch in raw switching between lightroom and ps. Have a look at piet van den eynde's black and white stuff and maybe buy some books or a tutorial.

I do D&B curves or grey layer but most curves.No actual DnB tool. I normally tend to keep skin quiet realistic(look at the link on my profile ) but this work went of f the rails somehow. Just wondering if other retouchers experienced same thing at some point of they carer. Those two photos were test pics. Bad quality of jpeg B&W conversion. I had very little to start with.
I think there is rental of Piet Van den Eynde at retouchpro. He is great.
Regarding stamp and healing tools they are the part of skin correction. Surely done on the split layer.
Thanks you for the tips

[nebulaoperator]

Originally Posted by kav

I wouldn't totally stay away from the clone stamp. Zits, stray hairs, and really tiny blemishes can be removed in this manner. Obviously I can't see all the detail in these relatively small images. If you zoom out on the before to where you can see all of it, take note of the things you don't like. On a separate layer make some annotations to indicate what is bothering you during this period of examination. I'd start off with the heavy lifting. Anything major, time consuming, or difficult should be done first. Take a short break after this and look over the image when you return to ensure it's not overdone. If it is fix whatever is overdone at that point. If it's feeling pretty good, make sure you take care of any zits or whatever, and start on the small DB work. Zoom out to examine your work frequently to ensure that it's smooth and that you aren't overdoing anything. Unless you have a specific look in mind for the work it's best to leave it slightly less retouched than overdo the work.

Hi kav,

My normal workflow starts with some major changes to composition and color correction. In the ACR. Then split and skin correction, lips eyes etc. Then D&B. After that I look at the image make notes and add or take off what is necessarily kind of final touches. But doing this photo I was to much obsessed with D&B by my retrospective. That's were I have probably lost the picture of entire work.
Resuming your last sentence less is more. You can always come back and add don't you?!
Thanks kav

[kav]

No problem man. Fyi the split layer is basically pointless unless you need to rebuild texture. It does produce very clean textures and sometimes I can use an extraction for an area I'm rebuilding. The healing brush really isn't that great. I hated it in photoshop 7 because ram and processor power were an issue then. I hate it now because it's more disruptive. The clone tool is ok for tiny stuff because I can use lighten/darken modes and work really small if it's something that I wish to completely obliterate (usually acne and tiny hairs).

I'd say get the eyes, hair, contrast and lighting the way you like them right away. With the dodge /burn layers set snapshots as you go. Be critical of if something starts to look overdone. There are plenty of overdone ads and magazine covers out today, but that doesn't mean you should strive for this. Her forehead looks a bit lacking in texture or shape in the pre dodge and burn version. Was this the effect of the cloning/healing brush or is she just wearing heavy makeup? It could be a camera thing with bad red channel detail too.

[women'sdesk]

here is an example of a crappy jpeg I pulled from the internet, I had to retouch this for editors in my city: http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5...eforrachel.jpg this jpeg was just a tiny scanned tearout, so not the best retouching example. Notice I didn't fix the skin at all. It is already blown out for high contrast b&w, it is also already flattened as a two dimensional image... The photo is flattened further in b&w and because it is just a low res jpeg. If you use the stamp tool over the top of an image like this, you are flattening it further by repeating the same patterns over the skin rather than restoring what is already there. Even though i didn't fix the skin, it has lost a lot of detail and the tearout looks blurry and a little bit fake. Until you've mastered D&B stay away from heal, clone and split techniques etc. If you are becoming visually desensitized simply ask someone else to be your eyes or spend time away from the photo before sending it to clients. Good luck!! xo

[nebulaoperator]

Originally Posted by women'sdesk

here is an example of a crappy jpeg I pulled from the internet, I had to retouch this for editors in my city: http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5...eforrachel.jpg this jpeg was just a tiny scanned tearout, so not the best retouching example. Notice I didn't fix the skin at all. It is already blown out for high contrast b&w, it is also already flattened as a two dimensional image... The photo is flattened further in b&w and because it is just a low res jpeg. If you use the stamp tool over the top of an image like this, you are flattening it further by repeating the same patterns over the skin rather than restoring what is already there. Even though i didn't fix the skin, it has lost a lot of detail and the tearout looks blurry and a little bit fake. Until you've mastered D&B stay away from heal, clone and split techniques etc. If you are becoming visually desensitized simply ask someone else to be your eyes or spend time away from the photo before sending it to clients. Good luck!! xo

thank you

[nebulaoperator]

Originally Posted by kav

No problem man. Fyi the split layer is basically pointless unless you need to rebuild texture. It does produce very clean textures and sometimes I can use an extraction for an area I'm rebuilding. The healing brush really isn't that great. I hated it in photoshop 7 because ram and processor power were an issue then. I hate it now because it's more disruptive. The clone tool is ok for tiny stuff because I can use lighten/darken modes and work really small if it's something that I wish to completely obliterate (usually acne and tiny hairs).

I'd say get the eyes, hair, contrast and lighting the way you like them right away. With the dodge /burn layers set snapshots as you go. Be critical of if something starts to look overdone. There are plenty of overdone ads and magazine covers out today, but that doesn't mean you should strive for this. Her forehead looks a bit lacking in texture or shape in the pre dodge and burn version. Was this the effect of the cloning/healing brush or is she just wearing heavy makeup? It could be a camera thing with bad red channel detail too.

this is original. not much texture there on forehead i would say. i think i did very little healing on forehead to be left for d&b.
http://s1119.photobucket.com/albums/...92835196-1.jpg
see what you think of the image.

[women'sdesk]

You're welcome Nebulaoperator, I'm taking that image down now that you've seen it. Good luck with your work! xo

[nebulaoperator]

Originally Posted by women'sdesk

You're welcome Nebulaoperator, I'm taking that image down now that you've seen it. Good luck with your work! xo

Thank you for input . I really appreciate it.