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my first retouching with D&B method

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  #11  
Old 03-28-2012, 02:25 PM
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JDClosser JDClosser is offline
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Red face Re: my first retouching with D&B method

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Originally Posted by kav View Post
This really isn't bad for starting out, even if it's an incredibly simple image. You just need a better understanding of shapes. You killed a couple transitions somewhat, and the lip goes flat rather than rounded because you treated the area as if it's intended to be a single tone/color. It's a really common mistake.



That's a slightly strange way of describing it. I said that you needed to look at what you want to change and make the changes more directed rather than stare at a curve tweaking the points bit by bit attempting to achieve the contrast that it's lacking. Some things just have to be built up in steps.



I kind of went through that a very long time ago. It's what happens if you don't know where you're actually going with the image. I can tell you right now, most skin doesn't take hours and hours to fix. Transforming really frizzy hair into smooth hair can take a long time if you're trying to remove all of the cross hairs and knots and stuff, but even then some people spend too long on it. With skin if you're spending that long on average, you don't understand it well enough. Quite often if you get the flow of the lighting and the color to look good, and remove any acne in a a seamless manner (meaning when you click the layers on and off, you shouldn't notice a true interruption in the grain of it or flats spots in the lighting), it starts to look a lot smoother and much less intimidating. Zoomed in burning and dodging it for hours and praying for smoothness is just an extremely bad way to go about it because you lose perspective for your goals there. This stuff doesn't have to seem unending. You just need to know what you want from the image, and you should have a very steady hand. Even working digitally, scribble work shows.




I disagree with you on dvds. If you want to make a popular dvd, you make something that is graspable rather than powerful. That's the problem. D/B is barely any different from shading a drawing and applying finishing details. You should know anatomy extremely well. You should know how it looks under different lighting situations. The fundamental concept of burning and the techniques that are generally used are extremely simple. The reason you see a lot of bad work is due to poor judgement, lack of skill, and bad comprehension of the subject matter. If you look at a jaw, you need to retain the muscles that would move if you expect a realistic result. In the case of the OP, some areas either went or already were a bit grey, and the OP made the common mistake or replacing an area containing shape with a flat tone. Again he/she needs to know more about anatomy than burn/dodge techniques. The lip where it's altered now has no curvature. The nose is missing parts of its structure. Sometimes I make mistakes like this even today, but the recognition kicks in over a matter of seconds or minutes rather than hours. I like that the OP tried to fill in the hair a bit, but that skin beneath it definitely looks too bright relative to the other highlights in the image. Little stuff like that will get you.
So what is it that you disagree with? The art of Dodge and Burn hits on sculpting and technique? what are you suggesting? because it seriously sounds like you are suggesting a careers worth of knowledge lol. I do agree with you about needing to know anatomy....maybe a class on drawing at a community college before you start
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  #12  
Old 03-28-2012, 02:43 PM
kav kav is offline
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Re: my first retouching with D&B method

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Originally Posted by JDClosser View Post
So what is it that you disagree with? The art of Dodge and Burn hits on sculpting and technique? what are you suggesting? because it seriously sounds like you are suggesting a careers worth of knowledge lol. I do agree with you about needing to know anatomy....maybe a class on drawing at a community college before you start
DVDs tend to make case studies out of making minor improvements to easy images so that the content is digestible even for everyone regardless of their level. This sells dvds, yet it gives a poor perspective of the learning curve for really well controlled work. We don't seem to disagree much on this, but this isn't a whole career's worth of knowledge. This is more like first year art college stuff. The problem is if you don't understand the anatomy, it's easy to destroy it. You'd be surprised how little smoothing I can get away with on skin, even on big files with every pore resolved. When you look at a completely raw image, it often looks a lot rougher than it really is. If you want to retain texture and an image that looks somewhat realistic, it just requires some sense of judgement and understanding of the muscle and bone shapes and how they look under different lighting.

I wouldn't call this a career's worth of knowledge. I'd call it a prerequisite.

edit: your suggestion of a drawing class is excellent, and community colleges can be fine if you find a good instructor. Just look up comments on them and see what people say. It's not so much if they liked or didn't like them, but more the details.
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  #13  
Old 03-29-2012, 04:34 AM
capice capice is offline
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Re: my first retouching with D&B method

Sorry Kav but I have to disagree with you on the DVDthing a bit....I do agree on the necessity of knowledge and understanding of anatony, this is a musthave imho.
But as a relative newcomer in the art of retouching I got an enourmous amout of information from the workflow from Nathalia Taffarel and Krunoslav Stifter as well as from a lot of people here on the forum(btw the mentioned D&Bdvd is from Krunoslav and not from Nathalia). It gives you an angle on where to go and how to think about and look at an image. No garantee to a succesfull career but it certainly gives a good reflection on workflow.
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  #14  
Old 03-29-2012, 07:38 AM
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JDClosser JDClosser is offline
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Re: my first retouching with D&B method

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Originally Posted by capice View Post
Sorry Kav but I have to disagree with you on the DVDthing a bit....I do agree on the necessity of knowledge and understanding of anatony, this is a musthave imho.
But as a relative newcomer in the art of retouching I got an enourmous amout of information from the workflow from Nathalia Taffarel and Krunoslav Stifter as well as from a lot of people here on the forum(btw the mentioned D&Bdvd is from Krunoslav and not from Nathalia). It gives you an angle on where to go and how to think about and look at an image. No garantee to a succesfull career but it certainly gives a good reflection on workflow.
Yes I know "aodb" is not Natalia's I was just saying that DVD or one of HER DVDs or workshops if you have one in your area. Last I knew she was looking for areas for upcoming workshops so I would definetly contact her to see if one will be close to your area.
Cheers,
JD
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  #15  
Old 03-30-2012, 07:55 PM
kav kav is offline
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Re: my first retouching with D&B method

Quote:
Originally Posted by capice View Post
Sorry Kav but I have to disagree with you on the DVDthing a bit....I do agree on the necessity of knowledge and understanding of anatony, this is a musthave imho.
But as a relative newcomer in the art of retouching I got an enourmous amout of information from the workflow from Nathalia Taffarel and Krunoslav Stifter as well as from a lot of people here on the forum(btw the mentioned D&Bdvd is from Krunoslav and not from Nathalia). It gives you an angle on where to go and how to think about and look at an image. No garantee to a succesfull career but it certainly gives a good reflection on workflow.
We have different opinions on these things, and I'm fine with that. I stress the anatomy thing (which we seem to agree on) for a reason. Not many people on here mention it, but not understanding it is a recipe for frustration, because you won't understand what is making the work feel too retouched or flat. Understanding the lighting and anatomy helps create flow and keep your eyes moving over an image. When you start to lose that, the image feels much flatter and more two dimensional.
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  #16  
Old 04-01-2012, 12:11 PM
capice capice is offline
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Re: my first retouching with D&B method

Different opinions make this forum worth reading....as said I agree on the anatomy
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  #17  
Old 04-01-2012, 07:25 PM
rek2k rek2k is offline
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Re: my first retouching with D&B method

Quote:
Originally Posted by kav View Post
This really isn't bad for starting out, even if it's an incredibly simple image. You just need a better understanding of shapes. You killed a couple transitions somewhat, and the lip goes flat rather than rounded because you treated the area as if it's intended to be a single tone/color. It's a really common mistake.



That's a slightly strange way of describing it. I said that you needed to look at what you want to change and make the changes more directed rather than stare at a curve tweaking the points bit by bit attempting to achieve the contrast that it's lacking. Some things just have to be built up in steps.



I kind of went through that a very long time ago. It's what happens if you don't know where you're actually going with the image. I can tell you right now, most skin doesn't take hours and hours to fix. Transforming really frizzy hair into smooth hair can take a long time if you're trying to remove all of the cross hairs and knots and stuff, but even then some people spend too long on it. With skin if you're spending that long on average, you don't understand it well enough. Quite often if you get the flow of the lighting and the color to look good, and remove any acne in a a seamless manner (meaning when you click the layers on and off, you shouldn't notice a true interruption in the grain of it or flats spots in the lighting), it starts to look a lot smoother and much less intimidating. Zoomed in burning and dodging it for hours and praying for smoothness is just an extremely bad way to go about it because you lose perspective for your goals there. This stuff doesn't have to seem unending. You just need to know what you want from the image, and you should have a very steady hand. Even working digitally, scribble work shows.




I disagree with you on dvds. If you want to make a popular dvd, you make something that is graspable rather than powerful. That's the problem. D/B is barely any different from shading a drawing and applying finishing details. You should know anatomy extremely well. You should know how it looks under different lighting situations. The fundamental concept of burning and the techniques that are generally used are extremely simple. The reason you see a lot of bad work is due to poor judgement, lack of skill, and bad comprehension of the subject matter. If you look at a jaw, you need to retain the muscles that would move if you expect a realistic result. In the case of the OP, some areas either went or already were a bit grey, and the OP made the common mistake or replacing an area containing shape with a flat tone. Again he/she needs to know more about anatomy than burn/dodge techniques. The lip where it's altered now has no curvature. The nose is missing parts of its structure. Sometimes I make mistakes like this even today, but the recognition kicks in over a matter of seconds or minutes rather than hours. I like that the OP tried to fill in the hair a bit, but that skin beneath it definitely looks too bright relative to the other highlights in the image. Little stuff like that will get you.
I couldn't agree more with this post...

One of the first thing you learn you when start drawing lessons is that you focus on the whole picture, not a minuscule detail. The first time I heard anyone said that pros use 2px brushes and take 8 hours to do skin, I was like really? That is probably the number one mistake in any creative field.

The best workflow to any creative process should always be top down... you start with very a broad scope and slowly move into smaller details only when required. Spending hours painting pixel by pixel is definite something that only a person with no creative background will do.

In the world of digital painting, the idea of constant layering and slowly building it to be more intricate comes directly from oil painting and sketching. Typical oil paintings range from 30-50 layers if you include the glaze.

Digital retouching is absolutely no difference than any other digital painting project. The process should always be starting off large, low increment amounts of adjustment, then slowly building up to small, very localized adjustment. Frankly, I cannot why anyone would require more than two hours to retouch skin if the process is followed correctly.
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