Final color toning/grading in CMYK

[Rust]

Hello i recently bought Stanislav Petera's Masterclass 3-color and tonality. He had absolutely some interesting points and one is the final color toning/grading is done after converting to CMYK. The argument for this is that CMYK gives more natural,realistic and softer tones than RGB.
Do any of you tone/grade pictures in CMYK? Please share your view on this matter.

[Benny Profane]

I suppose one could go off on a long debate about this, but, if you're a pro, or aspire to be one, forget about working in cmyk.

[kav]

The color gamut is more restricted, although some cmyk profiles contain colors especially in areas like maroon that don't really exist in the most common rgb spaces. There are some benefits I guess, but the typical Adobe 1998 workflow can work just fine. You just need to be aware of how not to create your own headaches and problems.

In case it's not clear, I'm saying it's a bad idea and that the author probably thinks this because it has a much more restricted gamut. If he's sloppy with his adjustments this would make a lot of sense.

[andrewrodney]

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

I suppose one could go off on a long debate about this, but, if you're a pro, or aspire to be one, forget about working in cmyk.

Amen. A very dangerous color model to be playing around with unless you really know what you’re doing and have a proper CMYK conversion to start with. And the argument for this is that CMYK gives more natural,realistic and softer tones than RGB is hogwash.

[Rust]

Hi thanks for the replies:
I don`t see the argument about being a pro then forget CMYK. Judging by his work Stanislav Petera is absolutely a pro. I also THINK Carrie Beene works a lot in CMYK, but i am not sure.
I am also aware of the restricted gamut , but is there a wide gamut cmyk profile?, because i think it would be worth playing around to see if it could give some interesting results

I found this:
http://curvemeister.com/tutorials/wi...cmyk/index.htm

maybe i could avoid negative effects using this profile?

[ShadowLight]

Originally Posted by Rust

Hi thanks for the replies:
I don`t see the argument about being a pro then forget CMYK. Judging by his work Stanislav Petera is absolutely a pro. I also THINK Carrie Beene works a lot in CMYK, but i am not sure.
I am also aware of the restricted gamut , but is there a wide gamut cmyk profile?, because i think it would be worth playing around to see if it could give some interesting results

I found this:
http://curvemeister.com/tutorials/wi...cmyk/index.htm

maybe i could avoid negative effects using this profile?

you want CMYK profile that will give you the same image as in RGB?

in the OP you stated: "The argument for this is that CMYK gives more natural,realistic and softer tones than RGB."

... I hope you see the nonsense

[Der_W]

I'll just throw in a link or two that might be of interest for some of you who like to work with CMYK channels but don't want to actually convert their files to a CMYK space (because of whatever reasons, mainly what's been posted above already).
The first link is an action that'll create different layers that stacked together simulate the CMYK channels in RGB mode: http://sean-blog.twicebakedphoto.com...yk-in-rgb.html
The second link explains the mechanics of this action a little bit: http://sean-blog.twicebakedphoto.com...explained.html

However personally I would highly recommend to first try and see if you can achieve the same results in RGB before applying "cheap tricks" like the one above that might overcomplicate your workflow and introduce other problems that you might not be aware of at the beginning!

[Benny Profane]

Originally Posted by Rust

I don`t see the argument about being a pro then forget CMYK. Judging by his work Stanislav Petera is absolutely a pro.

Because, if you attempted to work for a studio, or submit work to a client at a high level, you would have to work in RGB. Just the way it is. The CMYK conversion takes place in the pre press stage, for obvious reasons. This fellow, of course, is a pro, because he makes money doing what he does as a photographer, but don't assume because of that he's a very respected retoucher.

[Shoku]

If you eventually print your images, understanding CMYK is essential. Final prep should always be done in the output color space. We see a lot of nice RGB files fall apart when converted because the Photographer or Artist did not take CMYK limitations into account when preparing the file. We use whatever color space is necessary to achieve the desired results. Some adjustments are easier and more effective in RGB, some are better in CMYK, and others are best accomplished in LAB. I will not hire a retoucher who is ignorant of CMYK.

[andrewrodney]

Originally Posted by Shoku

If you eventually print your images, understanding CMYK is essential.

To be clear, I do a ton of printing and not very much ever ends up CMYK (I’m printing to an ink jet).

[Shoku]

Originally Posted by andrewrodney

To be clear, I do a ton of printing and not very much ever ends up CMYK (I’m printing to an ink jet).

One Question: Where do you get your RGB inks?

[andrewrodney]

Originally Posted by Shoku

One Question: Where do you get your RGB inks?

From Epson (Orange and green and some printers Red as well) but that doesn’t matter. You have to feed a GDI or Quickdraw driver RGB data. It doesn’t matter one bit the colorant in this case, the printer will only accept RGB data. There is a huge world of printing going on that has no regard what so ever for CMYK to make a print.

And are you aware there is an entire market segment of printing that doesn’t use ink at all but instead RGB dyes or silver media?

[Shoku]

Originally Posted by andrewrodney

From Epson (Orange and green and some printers Red as well) but that doesn’t matter. You have to feed a GDI or Quickdraw driver RGB data. It doesn’t matter one bit the colorant in this case, the printer will only accept RGB data. There is a huge world of printing going on that has no regard what so ever for CMYK to make a print.

And are you aware there is an entire market segment of printing that doesn’t use ink at all but instead RGB dyes or silver media?

Yes, there are some printers that accept a variety of colors (like Hexachrome), but standard printers are based on CMYK, (which is the printing color space. RGB is the color space created by light), even if they use ink sets larger than the standard 4c process. Most pro printers today use multiple Magenta, Cyan and Black inks to accommodate a greater range of color. But bottom line is this - all printers use inks based on the reflective color space. No one can print in RGB because that color space is based on the emission of light and cannot be laid down on paper.

Allowing your printer to do the final conversion from RGB is fine - if you are happy with the results. However, when working with standard printers (CMYK based) it is always better to prepare the final output in CMYK because you have more control that way - no matter how well you profile your equipment.

[andrewrodney]

I don’t know what the definition of ‘standard printer’ is. Every Epson printer I’ve used in the last bunch of years used something they call “Light Black”. Seems to be Gray to me. The first contone printer I used in early 1990, a Kodak XL-7700 just used CMY dyes. Not a lick of black, not at all necessary. And yes, some people can and do print in RGB (Lambda’s, Frontiers, Lightjets) all expose print material using lasers or LED’s emitting RGB.

Letting a printer do the conversion for you to CMYK may or may not work better depending on how savvy anyone in the path is in terms of having the correct recipe for that CMYK. If I build a custom CMYK profile that’s one thing. If some printer gets RGB data and simply selects SWOPV2, with no regard to the output device, anything is possible on output (good, bad and/or ugly).

If you have the correct recipe for conversion, a recipe that is easily described with an ICC profile, a 6 year old can be trained to convert in about 10 minutes and the output will be great.

Bottom line: lots and lots of output to lots and lots of printers never need the end user to concern themselves with CMYK. But like CMYK users, they need that recipe for the correct RGB values to send to the ‘black box’ that will create CMYK or CcMmYKK, or CcMmYKOG, you name it.

[Shoku]

Originally Posted by andrewrodney

And yes, some people can and do print in RGB (Lambda’s, Frontiers, Lightjets) all expose print material using lasers or LED’s emitting RGB.

Bottom line: lots and lots of output to lots and lots of printers never need the end user to concern themselves with CMYK. But like CMYK users, they need that recipe for the correct RGB values to send to the ‘black box’ that will create CMYK or CcMmYKK, or CcMmYKOG, you name it.

Exposing print material with light (RGB) is similar to making photographic prints in a darkroom (light used to expose light sensitive paper). The key to understand what is happening is the term "material." Like photo paper, the color is contained in an emulsion in the paper and those colors are based on CMYK, and the resulting color is limited to the color possible using those dyes - which may have a wider gamut than standard CMYK.

Your bottom line is correct: "they need that recipe for the correct RGB," and that is arrived at best if the operator understands CMYK and can make their own custom adjustments. Canned profiles can only achieve so much.