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Changing gamut creates horrible reds

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  #11  
Old 05-01-2013, 09:21 AM
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Re: Changing gamut creates horrible reds

It looks like you use a Mac and although I imagine that there should be very little difference between applications across platforms there could be specific things that I am missing as I am a PC user.

It is not 100% clear to me your workflow sequence and where the real problems lie. Maybe I have misunderstood the post but originally it seemed that your main problem was you exported your files from Lightroom as jpeg sRGB and when you viewed in PS you get a shift to Red is that correct?

When you get the red image in PS have you checked the profile is actually correct? Goto Edit/Assign Profile and look in the dialogue box - next to profile it should say sRGB if the imported file is tagged as sRGB. If it is anything else then try changing it to sRGB.

Although at odds with your sceen shot settings it looks very similar to assigning a Prophoto space to an sRGB image. If you look at the 4up image of the wooden owl the bottom images left is an sRGB version and the right is the image when assigned Prophoto. The colour change looks very similar to what you are experiencing? The top images show the original left in my pref. working space Prophoto and what happens if the image is assigned as sRGB.

IMHO it is good practice to synchronise your workflow settings between LR and PS, in my case I choose Prophoto but if you only want to work in sRGB then I would suggest that you should also set up LR for external editing in that space. You will see my settings for PS and LR are both the same in the attachments. It also means that if I right click an image in LR and select edit in PS that the image opens correctly without any warning dialogue boxes and I do not have to go through the export process.

With soft proofing you would expect to see differences between your original and you proof depending on profile. It is possible that the differences are slight that you are not noticing when changing if you view as a single image. So I prefer to set up LR as in the attachment showing two windows the left being the original edit and the right being the soft proofing window with the correct paper profile selected. You might want to look into using create virtual copy in softproofing.

I cannot comment on the views in Safari browser as I do not use this application but AFAIK it is or should be a colour managed application. If it is not or colour management is turned off this could account for problems with colour display being incorrect. I am fairly confident that the browser will expect an sRGB tagged image or assume this to be the case for an untagged image.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ColorSpaceAssign.jpg (177.5 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg Color.jpg (68.5 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg Lightroom.jpg (49.3 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg LR-Soft-proofing.jpg (133.4 KB, 14 views)
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  #12  
Old 05-01-2013, 09:31 AM
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Re: Changing gamut creates horrible reds

Safari is ICC aware. IF the images have an embedded profile, they will preview like Photoshop and LR. IF no embedded profile, the display profile is assumed (which could be the wrong assumption).

Just work on getting LR and PS in sync color wise and don't bring browsers into the equation just yet. When settings are correct, IN Develop at 1:1, the color should appear the same there as in Photoshop!

You either need to check the current Export Preset or your preferences for Edit in Photoshop (or external editor).
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  #13  
Old 05-02-2013, 06:01 PM
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Re: Changing gamut creates horrible reds

I revisited this as I had some thoughts about possible causes of the problems.

My guesses are:
  • You are embedding an incorrect profile i.e. a display profile
  • You are using a wide gamut monitor
  • Your monitor is incorrectly/not calibrated
The reason for my guesses is that copying and saving your attachments and bringing into PS the image shows an embedded profile named 'Photography' where I would expect it to say sRGB **** or any other RGB flavour.

I suspect this profile name is caused by setting and saving your image with one of your monitor display settings rather than the correct one e.g. sRGB, Adobe RGB etc. Consequently you are getting these strange results.

To prove this to myself -at least - I brought one of my attachments back into PS and assigned a display profile rather than an RGB. Bringing this into PS and choosing to not colour manage (Discard Profile) made the image quite red and therefore I think this likely to be the root of your problems.
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File Type: jpg WrongProfile.jpg (68.1 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by Tony W; 05-02-2013 at 06:25 PM. Reason: add image
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  #14  
Old 05-05-2013, 01:43 PM
matthiassebas matthiassebas is offline
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Re: Changing gamut creates horrible reds

Many thanks to mistermonday, TonyW and andrewrodney for the interesting feedback and your help and thoughts. In the last couple of days I have read all your suggestions and played around with the system and changed a lot of settings back and forth but unfortunately I wasnt able to find the problem.

Therefore and because the setup was too complicated (PS/LR/and the web all together) I started to reduce the number of components and did the following. But before I start let me describe the components that I am working with. I am working on an Eizo CG243W which is calibrated via a x-rite i1-Display-Pro using Eizos ColorNaviagator-6 software on a mac. The name of the display profile is 'Photography'. The mac is actually a macbookpro and its display is calibrated via the i1-Profiler from x-rite.

Here comes the simplified test. I loaded a .CR2 into photoshop/Camera Raw and saved from this photo a tight crop as a .TIFF encoded in ProPhoto-16bpc. I converted this .TIFF file from ProPhoto-16 to sRGB-8bpc (not using Assign-Profile but using Convert-to-Profile and converting 16bpc to 8bpc using the Image>Mode command) and used the save-as command to save 2 versions of this file. In PS the conversion did not change colours. One version was saved tagged/with profile (sRBG8bpc_wProfile.jpg) the other version was saved untagged /without profile (sRBG8bpc_woProfile.jpg). Both files are attached.

Before converting the .TIFF to sRGB I used the proofing mechanism in PS to check for out-of-gamut colour changes. No colour change was visible. I used the best .jpeg quality on export.

Now I tested the appearance of these two files in Safari, FireFox, GoogleCrome and Mac::Preview. The result was always the same. The tagged version appeared colour wise ok. The untagged version looked very very reddish. The difference was not at all subtle. Please see screenshot. (Yes, the screenshot is tagged with the profile 'Photography' but why would this be odd? This is a screenshot of an output device that uses a profile with this name.)

Now I uploaded the two files into the web and checked the appearance again on four different monitors. On the Eizo and on the LCD of macbookpro driving the Eizo the untagged photo was still very very reddish but the tagged photo was OK on both screens. Nevertheless on two other macbooks the difference between the tagged and the untagged picture was tiny! One of the other macbooks was calibrated too but as I mentioned there was almost no difference between the tagged and the untagged version on the two other macbooks.

Because I saw the effect (very reddish untagged version) on the wide-gamut display (the Eizo) and on a non-wide gamut display (the LCD of the macbook) the effect isnt a wide-gamut effect. Also I made sure that the conversion from ProPhoto to sRGB was correctly applied for both files. Therefore this cant be the effect of a wrongly applied profile e.g. a monitor profile. On 2 other macbooks the effect is tiny. Hence the effect seems to be relevant only to the macbookpro connected to the Eizo on which I run photoshop.

I always assumed that an untagged photo in a browser was treated as a sRGB-8bpc. Given the results (see screenshot) this must be wrong.

Could somebody please explain? Any ideas?

Screen shot 2013-05-05 at 18.53.09.png
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sRGB8bpc_wProfile.jpg (22.3 KB, 73 views)
File Type: jpg sRGB8bpc_woProfile.jpg (19.2 KB, 73 views)

Last edited by matthiassebas; 05-05-2013 at 01:49 PM.
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  #15  
Old 05-05-2013, 01:51 PM
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Re: Changing gamut creates horrible reds

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthiassebas View Post
Now I tested the appearance of these two files in Safari, FireFox, GoogleCrome and Mac::Preview. The result was always the same. The tagged version appeared colour wise ok. The untagged version looked very very reddish. The difference was not at all subtle.
At least in Safari, all untagged documents use your display profile to assume the color space of the data. But it's not in the color space of your display, it's in sRGB! Hence the disconnect.

All these browsers at least today are doing this wrong IMHO. They should allow the user to either select the assumption for untagged data, as we have in say Photoshop or just force the issue and assume sRGB. In the old OS9 days, that functionality was available.
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  #16  
Old 05-05-2013, 02:31 PM
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Re: Changing gamut creates horrible reds

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthiassebas View Post
...I have read all your suggestions and played around with the system and changed a lot of settings back and forth but unfortunately I wasnt able to find the problem.
The problem appears to be your Colour Management isn't! To be blunt I believe you have broken your colour management starting with unsynchronised setting LR to PS. I think you are probably making this more difficult than it needs to be so for the moment forget web browser differences and concentrate on getting LR and PS to work as they should

Quote:
Now I tested the appearance of these two files in Safari, FireFox, GoogleCrome and Mac::Preview. The result was always the same. The tagged version appeared colour wise ok. The untagged version looked very very reddish. The difference was not at all subtle. Please see screenshot.
Please first make sure your LR and PS settings are synchronised as stated earlier in this thread

Quote:
(Yes, the screenshot is tagged with the profile 'Photography' but why would this be odd? This is a screenshot of an output device that uses a profile with this name.)
Profile 'Photography' is not an editing/working space the profile you use for editing your image within PS will be sRGB, Adobe RGB, Prophoto, Apple RGB or Colormatch RGB. What is the output device with the profile you refer to? I suspect once again that you are referring to monitor profile which is not what you should be using. EDIT: Sorry but missed the fact that you have already said that the Photography profile is actually your monitor - so change the profile when saving to sRGB or one of the other RGB flavours

Quote:
I always assumed that an untagged photo in a browser was treated as a sRGB-8bpc. Given the results (see screenshot) this must be wrong.

Could somebody please explain? Any ideas?
Andrew answered this "IF no embedded profile, the display profile is assumed (which could be the wrong assumption)".

Question: How exactly have you synchronised your settings between LR and PS?

Suggestion: Once you have synchronised your LR PS settings bring an image into PS right click on the image in LR and select Edit in PS (make sure you have the mismatch warnings enabled in PS) and:
1. Did you get a warning dialogue telling you the image has an embedded profile that does not match your current working space?
If not then continue. If yes then you can choose to convert to working space.
2. Does the image look exactly the same in both applications? If yes then save the image with an sRGB embedded profile.
3. In PS goto File/ Save for Web and pick JPEG and Embed profile.
4. Now bring the image into PS web browsers and see if it is correct

Last edited by Tony W; 05-05-2013 at 02:40 PM.
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  #17  
Old 05-05-2013, 02:39 PM
matthiassebas matthiassebas is offline
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Re: Changing gamut creates horrible reds

@andrewrodney: Thats very very interesting. Just to make sure that I understand:

* The display profile 'Photography' will always be applied to all documents sent to this output device?

* The Untagged photo gets the profile of the output device here 'Photography' assigned to it. So the adjustment sRGB to 'Photography' is not applied instead an adjustment 'Photography' to 'Photography' is applied. This adjustment is doing nothing as editing profile and output profile are the same?

* In case of a prefect sRGB output device this wouldn't be a problem, as the assigned profile would be a correct fit. This explains why two other displays didnt show the problematic reds as it can be assumed that they have screens that are very close to perfect sRGB and profiles also very close to perfect sRGB?

* It seems that exporting untagged files isnt a very good idea for the web. What is the best thing to do? Exporting photos in 'sRGB-8bpc tagged'?

* If all browsers/displaying software would just assume that an untagged photo is sRGB instead of assuming its the display devices profile everybody with a calibrated monitor would see the correct colours for untagged sRGB files. Is there any rational that the software assumes that an untagged photo is of profile display-profile?


Thanks a lot!!!
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  #18  
Old 05-05-2013, 03:06 PM
matthiassebas matthiassebas is offline
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Re: Changing gamut creates horrible reds

Screen shot 2013-05-05 at 21.06.08.png

Screen shot 2013-05-05 at 21.05.15.png

@Tony W: Wrt your question please find my settings attached.

Wrt your suggestion I have set up the PS::Color-Settings in a way that Working-Space settings are treated as defaults only. When I use the LR::Edit-In dialog LR uses its External-Editing preferences which are set to ProPhoto-16bpc TIFF and these settings overwrite the PS Working-Space settings so I end up with a ProPhoto-16bpc photo in photoshop. From my point of view thats all good and creates the same starting point for the test I preformed with tagged and untagged photos.
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  #19  
Old 05-05-2013, 04:48 PM
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Re: Changing gamut creates horrible reds

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthiassebas View Post
Attachment 92941

Attachment 92940Wrt your suggestion I have set up the PS::Color-Settings in a way that Working-Space settings are treated as defaults only. When I use the LR::Edit-In dialog LR uses its External-Editing preferences which are set to ProPhoto-16bpc TIFF and these settings overwrite the PS Working-Space settings so I end up with a ProPhoto-16bpc photo in photoshop. From my point of view thats all good and creates the same starting point for the test I preformed with tagged and untagged photos.
No I do not see this as good. You have not synchronised settings at all. See attachment

1. May not be important if you are not using other creative suite apps but...

2. You are trying to fit Prophoto space from LR into PS which is set to sRGB. These settings will not overwrite the PS working space settings but bring an image to PS as Prophoto with wrong RGB values for the expected colour space (sRGB) as set in PS colour pref.

3. You will have no idea that this has happened (other than strange colours!) because you have turned off the Ask when Opening box. With this turned on you will get a warning of a mismatch and can choose to convert to whatever profile your PS working space is set to and get a correct rendering of your image in this different colour space.

If you want to work in sRGB set LR to output as sRGB otherwise set PS to use a working space the same as LR i.e. Prophoto
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File Type: jpg PS-and-LR-match.jpg (144.6 KB, 10 views)
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  #20  
Old 05-05-2013, 04:52 PM
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Re: Changing gamut creates horrible reds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony W View Post
2. You are trying to fit Prophoto space from LR into PS which is set to sRGB. These settings will not overwrite the PS working space settings but bring an image to PS as Prophoto with wrong RGB values for the expected colour space (sRGB) as set in PS colour pref.
All he has to do is just set PS to Preserve in color settings.

Plus LR has two possible ways to pass it's data onto Photoshop. Export (which can be any color space) or Open In Photoshop which has it's own settings for color space. It is possible neither are set for ProPhoto. In any case, if Photoshop were to just honor what is being fed, everting should be OK.
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