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Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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  #21  
Old 03-23-2015, 01:45 AM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blohan View Post
I already did. As you can see from this picture http://41.media.tumblr.com/0ac6b44270b26ef7816cad03de3e3835/tumblr_nllsx0dPUp1ryxb20o1_400.jpg


and these others http://41.media.tumblr.com/4fc658e86...b20o1_1280.jpg

you can tell that not only did they had to rebuild her scalp from scratch on post production, they also had to comb the hair properly because in the original pictures, the parting of the hair is a mess, and the wig is all frizzy because they didn't bother to fix it properly. So, rebuilding the hairline from scratch, combing the hair on the computer and eliminating all the frizzy and out of place hair, some of which were in her eyes in the unprocessed shots, would be 3 to 4 days of post production on the hair ALONE, so yeah my calculations of it taking a week per picture are correct.

These are final shots were you can tell I'm right: https://madonnapictures.files.wordpr...2009/03/25.jpg

https://madonnapictures.files.wordpr...2009/03/04.jpg

Here are before and after shots of Mert and Marcus, the ones the other poster calls "great":

http://40.media.tumblr.com/e944b4c85...b20o1_1280.jpg

http://36.media.tumblr.com/45dbcaea4...b20o2_1280.jpg

I'd love to say that the before picture is just a test shot but no, that's the actual photoshoot.

Anyway, I'm done really, goobyee
In only one of these have you posted an actual before/after (the last,) and there is no hairline issue. I don’t see it as a bad starting photo, from a technical standpoint. That’s what you get when you photograph a woman her age with a razor sharp lens.

In all the others it's impossible to tell if those are test shots or finals as the before images aren't the one's used for the finals. So it’s hard to make any assessments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blohan View Post
And what do you know about the experience I've had or haven't had? If anything, I can say the opposite. If in your line of work, completely rebuilding hairlines in photoshop is customary, then you've been working with mediocrity as well as quacks selling snake oil.

No photographer worth their salt is going to allow a subject go into the set looking like this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MFtEZtRTxa...te%252Bpng.png

Why? So that you have to completely rebuild her hairline from scratch to make it look like this:

http://perlbal.hi-pi.com/blog-images...1284835862.jpg

And that's just the hairline. Let's not even talk about the bad lighting, the bad color, which has to be done IN THE SHOT, YOU CANNOT HAVE COLOR CONTAMINATION IN THE SHOT, which this picture clearly has, and I can go on and on but I won't because you are mediocre and a waste of time.
In this instance, these two are not identical frames, but I'll take your word for it that the used image had the bad hairline that needed to be fixed. The before image however, when taken into Photoshop for lightening and color correction reveals surface blobs on it indicating it may be a Polaroid (the most obvious one being just right of her camera right elbow,) which would explain why: 1) it's not identical to the final image, 2) it's soft, 3) it's color is off.

I wont argue what's great vs mediocre, but I will say that in this latter example, the only way it would take a week to do that retouching is if there were a crazed art director running around telling everyone they're working too fast, are frauds and mediocre wastes of time.

Chances are they left those details to retouching because fixing it in the dressing room would take even longer. By your math, possibly even two weeks!
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  #22  
Old 03-23-2015, 02:19 AM
blohan blohan is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashtones View Post
In only one of these have you posted an actual before/after (the last,) and there is no hairline issue. I don’t see it as a bad starting photo, from a technical standpoint. That’s what you get when you photograph a woman her age with a razor sharp lens.

In all the others it's impossible to tell if those are test shots or finals as the before images aren't the one's used for the finals. So it’s hard to make any assessments.



In this instance, these two are not identical frames, but I'll take your word for it that the used image had the bad hairline that needed to be fixed. The before image however, when taken into Photoshop for lightening and color correction reveals surface blobs on it indicating it may be a Polaroid (the most obvious one being just right of her camera right elbow,) which would explain why: 1) it's not identical to the final image, 2) it's soft, 3) it's color is off.

I wont argue what's great vs mediocre, but I will say that in this latter example, the only way it would take a week to do that retouching is if there were a crazed art director running around telling everyone they're working too fast, are frauds and mediocre wastes of time.

Chances are they left those details to retouching because fixing it in the dressing room would take even longer. By your math, possibly even two weeks!
Yet again, one more post justifying mediocrity. What is wrong? Are you Steven Klein's assistant?

I can't possibly show the exact same image retouched and unretouched, but that doesn't diminish my point at all, on the contrary. I am showing you just how she looked on the set and how the pictures look and there's a huge difference and not for the better.

Taking pictures of a subject with such a tragic hairline like on the Marie Antoinette shots, to me, is a waste of time to have to rebuild from scratch her entire hairline. It's a waste of time. Unless you are doing digital artwork, retouching is not for building or rebuilding anything.

Anyway I don't care anymore, I made my point, peace.
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  #23  
Old 03-23-2015, 07:05 AM
jklier jklier is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

Retouching aside, it certainly is true that some people get opportunities that may not be justified by their work record, while other talented people never get the chance.

And every fashion image is the result of the collaborative work of a large team, even if the photo credit sometimes just lists the big shot.

That is the nature of an industry that is actually quite small at the core, and where relationships matter at least as much as what and how you do it. If you are simply thinking that you are big shot photographer without a name and could do better, you may be mistaken. There are many photographers who are in need of a bit of calibration with the real world.

That is not to say you may not have talent, or create fabulous photos. But it's non-trivial to assess a comparison of one's own skill to someone with more experience. You simply can't see past the glasshouse and that is human nature. Look back at your past work, and you may be quite embarrassed indeed, yet when you did it you thought the world of it. It's a process of career long learning and growing.

In the end, if you do want a shot at a cover, spend at least as much time building relationships in the industry, get to know people, as you do spend hours retouching (oh, crap, you said you didn't believe in that), well, then as you spend hours getting it right in the camera. If you do not know the right people and they do not know about you, it really doesn't matter how you got your image...

Here is some food for thought: Compare four scenarios - a famous photographer shoots a famous model, and even if it's a rather mediocre shot it has a good chance of being published (you probably have a few names in mind here, other than the ones in the subject line). A famous photographer shoots a no-name model. He likely still can make a decent shot and get some exposure for it. Some unknown photographer wins the lotto and pays a supermodel's day rate and does a nice image. Probably doesn't go anywhere, but will look good in the next portfolio review (I know a fellow who had a shot of Claudia Schiffer in his book...). Then you have an unknown photographer shooting an unknown model and create a fabulous creative image. And no-one notices. Happens millions of times a day.

Yes, the image matters. But who does it matters more.
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  #24  
Old 03-23-2015, 01:42 PM
blohan blohan is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jklier View Post
Retouching aside, it certainly is true that some people get opportunities that may not be justified by their work record, while other talented people never get the chance.

And every fashion image is the result of the collaborative work of a large team, even if the photo credit sometimes just lists the big shot.

That is the nature of an industry that is actually quite small at the core, and where relationships matter at least as much as what and how you do it. If you are simply thinking that you are big shot photographer without a name and could do better, you may be mistaken. There are many photographers who are in need of a bit of calibration with the real world.

That is not to say you may not have talent, or create fabulous photos. But it's non-trivial to assess a comparison of one's own skill to someone with more experience. You simply can't see past the glasshouse and that is human nature. Look back at your past work, and you may be quite embarrassed indeed, yet when you did it you thought the world of it. It's a process of career long learning and growing.

In the end, if you do want a shot at a cover, spend at least as much time building relationships in the industry, get to know people, as you do spend hours retouching (oh, crap, you said you didn't believe in that), well, then as you spend hours getting it right in the camera. If you do not know the right people and they do not know about you, it really doesn't matter how you got your image...

Here is some food for thought: Compare four scenarios - a famous photographer shoots a famous model, and even if it's a rather mediocre shot it has a good chance of being published (you probably have a few names in mind here, other than the ones in the subject line). A famous photographer shoots a no-name model. He likely still can make a decent shot and get some exposure for it. Some unknown photographer wins the lotto and pays a supermodel's day rate and does a nice image. Probably doesn't go anywhere, but will look good in the next portfolio review (I know a fellow who had a shot of Claudia Schiffer in his book...). Then you have an unknown photographer shooting an unknown model and create a fabulous creative image. And no-one notices. Happens millions of times a day.

Yes, the image matters. But who does it matters more.
And this relates to me how? I don't even live in the US or the UK, and I'm not a part of the industry, nor do I want to. I was simply pointing out two quacks selling snake oil in photography.

What you wrote is the perspective of a mediocre person. You are basically saying that, the charisma and the personality and physical style of a photographer is worth more than what they can actually do. Steven Klein's and Mert and Marcus' technical skills are close to zero. Their photographs are built from the ground up in photoshop because they have no real skill, they are quacks. But that doesn't matter because they are Steven Klein and Mert & Marcus.

That reasoning, your reasoning, is the mediocre person's response. You are the type of person who is content with praising the invisible clothes of the emperor that walks around naked. That's mediocre and that's not me. I'm the child that doesn't give a damn and is going to say out loud that the emperor is naked. You say that's throwing stones from a glass house? Well if you want to take that mantle of mediocrity, that's fine, but that's not what's happening.
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  #25  
Old 03-23-2015, 01:50 PM
Greg Curran's Avatar
Greg Curran Greg Curran is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

I think she looks like that already, then needs a TON of retouching to make her even look remotely good.
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  #26  
Old 03-23-2015, 01:58 PM
blohan blohan is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
I think she looks like that already, then needs a TON of retouching to make her even look remotely good.
Honestly, she does not. I have seen high resolution images of her walking around taken by paparazzis as well as in events, and she looks amazing, her skin is incredibly beautiful. She does not look as she does in the outtakes. The outtakes come out like that because they photograph her with terrible lighting, terrible makeup, terrible hair, because they are quacks. Then they have to rebuild her from scratch on photoshop to cover for Klein's and the other two's shoddiness and mediocrity.

I've also had the opportunity to see outtakes of Madonna sessions done by Herb Ritts and Jean Baptiste Mondino and they are just as beautiful as the final, retouched shots, the retouch needed is minimal. Why? Because Herb Ritts and Mondino were/are TITANIC GENIUSES that would never photograph their subjects unless they are impeccable. See, they didn't WASTE TIME on photoretouching.

Did they retouch? Of course they did. But they understood what retouching is for. Retouching is not to make the picture but to enhance it. The picture needs to be made and done in the negative, or the sensor. Klein has people create pictures for him on photoshop because he can't do it in the shot. It's apples and oranges, in this case, huge talent with Ritts and Mondino, and then a total quack.
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  #27  
Old 03-23-2015, 02:47 PM
Claude Balls Claude Balls is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

Really you regular guys should know better:
blowhard said
Quote:
Sorry for the abrasive thread
...I don't plan to stay here
...You couldn't be more wrong even if you tried.
...Nothing more. I'm done with talking to you.
...Anyway, I'm done really, goobyee
...I can go on and on but I won't because you are mediocre and a waste of time.
...Anyway I don't care anymore, I made my point, peace.
Even after all the promises still posting !!!

Seems to me someone with a hard on for Madge that feels slighted by what he/she sees as a photographic insult

So prove me wrong by posting something useful to the majority of this forums users or just ..............
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  #28  
Old 03-23-2015, 03:06 PM
blohan blohan is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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Originally Posted by Claude Balls View Post
Really you regular guys should know better:
blowhard saidEven after all the promises still posting !!!

Seems to me someone with a hard on for Madge that feels slighted by what he/she sees as a photographic insult

So prove me wrong by posting something useful to the majority of this forums users or just ..............
What do you want me to post? It really has nothing to do with me being a Madonna fan, I'm also a photographer, and many times I've wondered, well how can I achieve that, how can I have my pictures look flawless? But then I realize that, from a photographic perspective, it is impossible to achieve. The aesthetic that people demand for is 100% the realm of graphic designers and retouchers, and that is not photography.

This is photography: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...782e5c37d4.jpg

This is not: http://www.ilvoelv.com/wp-content/up...0910-IREN2.jpg

But that still isn't the problem I wanted to address. The last picture is heavily retouched, but it was taken by Steven Meisel. When you look at the outtakes, they don't look that bad. They still look rough for a Meisel photograph, since even older photographers get complacent and shoddy but this outtake: http://40.media.tumblr.com/66bad8ea5...b20o1_1280.jpg

looks infinitely better than this by Steven Klein: http://36.media.tumblr.com/e18bdf037...b20o1_1280.jpg

where she looks beyond repulsive and not how she truly looks in real life.

Here is another Steven Meisel outtake: http://40.media.tumblr.com/2bf025715...b20o1_1280.jpg

When the above picture goes into post production, there is almost nothing that needs to be done, because the photograph is as perfect as it can be, the retouching is just there to enhance and fix things impossible to fix on camera, but everything else is done right.

Steven Klein's and Mert & Marcus' pictures are disgusting, they need to be built from scratch because they couldn't possibly dream of creating what Meisel is able to create on the shot because they are quacks. That's my whole point, which I've already made and which no one has been able to refute.

So what else do you want me to say? I'm not here to teach anything. What do you want from me? And furthermore, why does it sting you so that I am exposing Klein and Marcus and Alas for the frauds that they are?
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  #29  
Old 03-23-2015, 05:07 PM
klev klev is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic View Post
I think she looks like that already, then needs a TON of retouching to make her even look remotely good.
I don't necessarily view it that way. Most of these things with shiny makeup don't resemble how you would perceive someone face to face. If they weren't going to retouch things this way, they would choose different lighting and overall processes in creating the image. The kind of thing linked isn't that atypical. Part of it is the way digital sensors respond to lighting. If you way under-expose the background, you end up with a noisy mess. You also need a lot more space and flagging to really separate a background in camera. These things are regularly brought down in post. The skin doesn't need that much smoothing. It's reflecting the upper layers of skin quite a bit more than the blood vessels, which makes it look more greyish. If these tools were unavailable, people simply wouldn't light things this way.
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  #30  
Old 03-23-2015, 05:12 PM
blohan blohan is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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Originally Posted by klev View Post
I don't necessarily view it that way. Most of these things with shiny makeup don't resemble how you would perceive someone face to face. If they weren't going to retouch things this way, they would choose different lighting and overall processes in creating the image. The kind of thing linked isn't that atypical. Part of it is the way digital sensors respond to lighting. If you way under-expose the background, you end up with a noisy mess. You also need a lot more space and flagging to really separate a background in camera. These things are regularly brought down in post. The skin doesn't need that much smoothing. It's reflecting the upper layers of skin quite a bit more than the blood vessels, which makes it look more greyish. If these tools were unavailable, people simply wouldn't light things this way.
This is the reasoning of someone that doesn't know how to light anything. Real photographers do not overexpose or underexpose to fix in photoshop, because it can't be fixed. It couldn't be fixed in the dark room then, it can't be fixed now. You cannot give detail to something that doesn't have it. All those shines, extreme whites, there is no detail there. That is why her skin is painted over with a beige color in photoshop because the actual lights are overexposed.

Who are you? Where do you work?? I am astonished that a professional working in the first world like I assume you are, can come up with such mediocre and ignorant reasoning.
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