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Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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  #71  
Old 03-25-2015, 05:26 PM
blohan blohan is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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Originally Posted by AKMac View Post
That is EXACTLY what they ARE sitting down with them to do. You are so wildly off the mark. Retouching has evolved. It's more than fixing hairlines, it deals with a whole world more than that.
No it doesn't, it has devolved, you now do 90% of the work and get zero of the credit.
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  #72  
Old 03-25-2015, 08:59 PM
photoGrant photoGrant is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

Blohan.

Whilst I agree with you (almost entirely) you're posting on a retouching forum, a place where people are actually making a living from 'bad' photography. Granted it's a lot more granular than that and the sweeping strokes of talent can go from shit to amazing....

But you're still stood in the pits of hell complaining that it's too hot. You aren't going to get anyone (here at least) to agree with you. It's like signing your own death warrant as a retoucher. And I'm sure I'll receive responses to this countering some point here or there but that's about the top and bottom of it.

Best advice I can give is to pursue your work with the integrity you think it deserves and let it stand/shine on its own accord without criticizing the shit others put out. Regardless of their success you should understand that in the professional photography industry, it's typically about 20% of the image and 80% of the ability to market yourself. These guys are good businessmen.
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  #73  
Old 03-25-2015, 09:12 PM
blohan blohan is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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Originally Posted by photoGrant View Post
Blohan.

Whilst I agree with you (almost entirely) you're posting on a retouching forum, a place where people are actually making a living from 'bad' photography. Granted it's a lot more granular than that and the sweeping strokes of talent can go from shit to amazing....

But you're still stood in the pits of hell complaining that it's too hot. You aren't going to get anyone (here at least) to agree with you. It's like signing your own death warrant as a retoucher. And I'm sure I'll receive responses to this countering some point here or there but that's about the top and bottom of it.

Best advice I can give is to pursue your work with the integrity you think it deserves and let it stand/shine on its own accord without criticizing the shit others put out. Regardless of their success you should understand that in the professional photography industry, it's typically about 20% of the image and 80% of the ability to market yourself. These guys are good businessmen.
I honestly wouldn't say they are good businessmen, I don't know about their business, all I know is that they are quacks. They are great quacks. Great quacks get away with it entirely. They have even fooled Madonna, who has been photographed by the greatest legends of all time and I can't for the life of me understand how can she see those proofs and not implode in total horror. Assuming she even gets to see ANYTHING before the retouchers rebuild the pictures from scratch. I know for a fact that she must have seen the Mondino proofs, the Herb Ritts proof, the Demarchelier proofs without any retouching because proofs are shown without retouching and she would choose from there, like everyone has always done. In order to be able to show proofs that are not going to horrify the client, your pictures need to be excellent from the negative, period, it's that simple. They have to be able to even be printed straight from the negative.

I have no idea how they do it now, I have seen that all photographers shoot and they already have someone on a computer fixing the images while the subject is still in front of the lens, which means that the subject never actually sees any proofs? Otherwise believe me these people wouldn't be able to work again in their lives.

Photography, all over, not just in the first world, has become a profession of quacks, for quacks. That's fine. I'm not the one that has to say in front of a computer for two weeks reconstructing an entire hairline and wig in photoshop and on top of that not even get the credit for it. I'm not the one doing digital paintings and have a quack take 100% of the credit and the big paycheck. If someone is happy being used that way so be it, I don't care, I simply made this thread and that's it, it has been prolonged because I don't back from any argument specially when I am 100% right, but I'm not here to convince anybody. You can't force people to see that can't see.
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  #74  
Old 03-25-2015, 10:45 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by photoGrant View Post
Blohan.

Whilst I agree with you (almost entirely) you're posting on a retouching forum, a place where people are actually making a living from 'bad' photography. Granted it's a lot more granular than that and the sweeping strokes of talent can go from shit to amazing....

But you're still stood in the pits of hell complaining that it's too hot. You aren't going to get anyone (here at least) to agree with you. It's like signing your own death warrant as a retoucher. And I'm sure I'll receive responses to this countering some point here or there but that's about the top and bottom of it.

Best advice I can give is to pursue your work with the integrity you think it deserves and let it stand/shine on its own accord without criticizing the shit others put out. Regardless of their success you should understand that in the professional photography industry, it's typically about 20% of the image and 80% of the ability to market yourself. These guys are good businessmen.

This doesn’t speak for me at all.

I'm a photographer and retoucher. I don't have to assail or defend either trade. When the retouchers bitch about flyaway hairs, as a photographer I understand why they're there. Because it's better to let one guy glued to the chair work it out than hold up a whole team to spare the guy in the chair.

I shoot mostly product, mostly jewelry. In the old days of large format slide film, I'd have to go in with a fine artist's brush and flick away every dust speck, sometimes upsetting the piece or the set, which could waste an hour to fix what can now be done in a couple of seconds. It's not mediocrity, it's efficiency.

I'm not as grand as blohard, who's clearly a legend; some of us have strengths and weaknesses. Art directors have told me while my work it technically excellent, my styling could use improvement. I agree. I'm good at angles and lighting, revealing form and detail. I do good hero shots. But when too many objects are involved, or I need to make it more liefstyle-ish and create an ambiance, etc., I need help, I need a stylist.

Earlier on I also did some portraiture. I did good work, and again technically excellent. A lot of BW with a Hassleblad. I was a very accomplished BW printer, and my printing skills played a large part in my artistry, similar to the way my photoshop work does now. I also printed commercially, IOW I'd lend my printing skills to other photogs, just as I do my retouching today. Doesn't mean I made/make their images. I help, just as a stylist, make-up artist and art director do.

But even as a portraitist, however good my work was, it was not inspired the way many of the greats are. First of all I'm shy, I don't like working intimately with people. Second, sitters want to be directed. Saying "Ok, now look off to the left, chin up. Now back at me. Now think of someone who makes you happy, perhaps y”our child or pet” isn't enough. It’s good enough for mom and pop, but it’s pedestrian, it’s not going to move people.

That’s why I’m not a household name. And I bet a million dollars blohard isn't either.

Some of these fashion guys don't know sheeet about business, they have reps and agents for that. What they are good at is having the vision. It’s coming up with ideas, setting a mood, giving direction, creating an energy, evoking emotion, making an indelible image.

Art schools churn out blohards by the thousands every semester. Anyone who's taken a course and has an entry level dSLR can take a technically suitable photo. And if they don't, a decent retoucher can elevate it, sometimes turning sh*t into Shinola. But ONLY Shinola!

However, the photographers who routinely produce gems, who produce an oeuvre of memorable images, images that have a deeper character than just teal skies or neat hair, images that viewers want to be a part of, that make people want to get off their comfy chairs and shell out ungodly sums…well…that comes from them. If they aren't around to produce it, it's not going to come from the make-up artist or retoucher.

This occurs in every field. I'm a fan of the late, great Marvin Gaye. Marvin would come to the studio with loose notes of ideas, often improvising on the spot. His session musicians would help build them into songs. Then Marvin would spend months overdubbing, layering, harmonizing his vocal tracks. Some of his studio musicians thought they didn't get enough credit for their contributions, but others realized that none of that was going to happen without Marvin - that music was uniquely his. He was the inspiration and it grew from the seed in his soul.

The truth is nobody is moved by work that is sterile and soulless, however technically perfect it may be. It's about who has the will, imagination and charisma to produce something memorable.

That these guys don't do it for blohard is of no importance - not sure they do it for me either. But their success or failure should have so little to do with a ruffled hairline on a polaroid or snapshot, it's just laughable to talk about. Blohard hasn’t a clue.
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  #75  
Old 03-25-2015, 11:05 PM
blohan blohan is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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Originally Posted by Flashtones View Post
This doesn’t speak for me at all.

I'm a photographer and retoucher. I don't have to assail or defend either trade. When the retouchers bitch about flyaway hairs, as a photographer I understand why they're there. Because it's better to let one guy glued to the chair work it out than hold up a whole team to spare the guy in the chair.

I shoot mostly product, mostly jewelry. In the old days of large format slide film, I'd have to go in with a fine artist's brush and flick away every dust speck, sometimes upsetting the piece or the set, which could waste an hour to fix what can now be done in a couple of seconds. It's not mediocrity, it's efficiency.

I'm not as grand as blohard, who's clearly a legend; some of us have strengths and weaknesses. Art directors have told me while my work it technically excellent, my styling could use improvement. I agree. I'm good at angles and lighting, revealing form and detail. I do good hero shots. But when too many objects are involved, or I need to make it more liefstyle-ish and create an ambiance, etc., I need help, I need a stylist.

Earlier on I also did some portraiture. I did good work, and again technically excellent. A lot of BW with a Hassleblad. I was a very accomplished BW printer, and my printing skills played a large part in my artistry, similar to the way my photoshop work does now. I also printed commercially, IOW I'd lend my printing skills to other photogs, just as I do my retouching today. Doesn't mean I made/make their images. I help, just as a stylist, make-up artist and art director do.

But even as a portraitist, however good my work was, it was not inspired the way many of the greats are. First of all I'm shy, I don't like working intimately with people. Second, sitters want to be directed. Saying "Ok, now look off to the left, chin up. Now back at me. Now think of someone who makes you happy, perhaps y”our child or pet” isn't enough. It’s good enough for mom and pop, but it’s pedestrian, it’s not going to move people.

That’s why I’m not a household name. And I bet a million dollars blohard isn't either.

Some of these fashion guys don't know sheeet about business, they have reps and agents for that. What they are good at is having the vision. It’s coming up with ideas, setting a mood, giving direction, creating an energy, evoking emotion, making an indelible image.

Art schools churn out blohards by the thousands every semester. Anyone who's taken a course and has an entry level dSLR can take a technically suitable photo. And if they don't, a decent retoucher can elevate it, sometimes turning sh*t into Shinola. But ONLY Shinola!

However, the photographers who routinely produce gems, who produce an oeuvre of memorable images, images that have a deeper character than just teal skies or neat hair, images that viewers want to be a part of, that make people want to get off their comfy chairs and shell out ungodly sums…well…that comes from them. If they aren't around to produce it, it's not going to come from the make-up artist or retoucher.

This occurs in every field. I'm a fan of the late, great Marvin Gaye. Marvin would come to the studio with loose notes of ideas, often improvising on the spot. His session musicians would help build them into songs. Then Marvin would spend months overdubbing, layering, harmonizing his vocal tracks. Some of his studio musicians thought they didn't get enough credit for their contributions, but others realized that none of that was going to happen without Marvin - that music was uniquely his. He was the inspiration and it grew from the seed in his soul.

The truth is nobody is moved by work that is sterile and soulless, however technically perfect it may be. It's about who has the will, imagination and charisma to produce something memorable.

That these guys don't do it for blohard is of no importance - not sure they do it for me either. But their success or failure should have so little to do with a ruffled hairline on a polaroid or snapshot, it's just laughable to talk about. Blohard hasn’t a clue.
The one that doesn't have a clue in here is you, which is pathetic judging by how many decades you must have in the business. I don't even live in the US, I didn't have the chance to become a household name, but maybe I would have had I been in the right place, because I have a vision and I take great pictures. You where there on fertile ground yet you are not a household name. That says a lot actually.

And your last comment also says a lot about how ignorant, mediocre and clueless you actually are.

Technical perfection is not anathema to moving, emotional images. George Hurrell's portraits literally stop people on their tracks and take their breath away. That is art. That's why they are great. And you can't be great if you are going to shoot a subject with a badly glued wig on, oily shiny skin and wrinkled clothes like Steven Klein does. It's that simple. And it's quite telling that he has yet to produce a single iconic image in all of this f*cked up drugged out career. Same for Mert and Marcus, Tom Munro and everyone that's mediocre.

When Madonna dies, we are going to see one of Herb Ritts portraits or Newton's portraits or Steven Meisel's portraits be her death portrait, the portrait that is going to be shown in front pages all over the world. Why? Because they were great. They never photographed her, or anybody for that matter, with a stray hair in their face.

Pedophile Roman Polanski, who is a genius filmmaker in spite of being a pedophile, had a huge fight with Faye Dunaway because he plucked one of her hairs out that was falling on her face. A single hair bothered him. Well, Chinatown wouldn't be the masterpiece that it is if Polanski didn't have the eagle eye to see a hair that bothered him so much that he had to pluck it out with his bare hands.

That is art. Shooting whatever and letting some dumbass fix it on post production is neither art, nor is it even efficient. At all. So don't even try it with me.
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  #76  
Old 03-26-2015, 01:52 AM
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AKMac AKMac is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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Originally Posted by blohan View Post
...........I didn't have the chance to become a household name, but maybe I would have had I been in the right place, because I have a vision and I take great pictures.
You don't have vision, and you don't take great pictures. But you are entertaining, albeit at your own expense.
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  #77  
Old 03-26-2015, 01:54 AM
blohan blohan is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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Originally Posted by AKMac View Post
You don't have vision, and you don't take great pictures. But you are entertaining, albeit at your own expense.
You wish that were true, unfortunately for you, it isn't.
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  #78  
Old 03-26-2015, 02:06 AM
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AKMac AKMac is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

So.....aren't you desperately wanting to show off how good you are. Where are all those inspired and technically breathtaking images that you produce when you're not pursuing your second career as an online buffoon.
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  #79  
Old 03-26-2015, 02:10 AM
blohan blohan is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

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Originally Posted by AKMac View Post
So.....aren't you desperately wanting to show off how good you are. Where are all those inspired and technically breathtaking images that you produce when you're not pursuing your second career as an online buffoon.
The only buffoon in here is you, I did not make this thread to showcase my work, I was just expressing and opinion about some people who are not even you and you just retorted with the classic response every mediocre person is going to have against criticism, "do it yourself" or some stupid ass variant. It's called having criteria, I don't have to be the best photographer in the world nor do I have to prove anything to you in order to have criteria which I do have, and you don't.
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  #80  
Old 03-26-2015, 03:11 AM
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Repairman Repairman is offline
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Re: Steven Klein, Mert and Marcus, all frauds.

blohard needs to get a few things straight in his head. The objectives of commercial photography and by extension post production, are to produce images that satisfy the requirements of the paying customer. This may be a product shot, scene or concept that benefits from the artistic input of the photographer but their 'vision' will be corralled by the primary objective which is to crystallise someone else's ideas into a coherent image.

Artists do not have to justify their work and can indulge their fantasies all day long without regard to time or interference. If they are really good they may even make a living but we all know that isn't how it works for most of us. However there is no shame in doing good work as part of a team and there is craft in setting up a process that delivers the goods. Bitchin about it is pathetic and tantamount to howling at the moon.

Importantly, we have no idea what the objectives were on the Madonna shoot, the circumstances or how long the photographer had access to her so the vehemence of blowhard's comments are both disproportionate and inappropriate. Keep your ideals blowhard but make space for other peoples too.
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