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How to apply Pantone skin tones

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  #21  
Old 01-25-2016, 08:03 PM
skoobey skoobey is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
No. And all are truly awful.
That's what I was trying to point at. Not everything that is skin has to be a certain shade of red to be read(pun intended) as realistic or just plain pretty.
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  #22  
Old 01-25-2016, 08:05 PM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

Oh, and BTW, the 'rule' doesn't work for this skin either although any of the images here are vastly better IMHO than the awful 'skin' you provided:
http://www.gormanphotography.com/IMAGERY/Portraiture/2
http://www.gormanphotography.com/IMAGERY/Portraiture/88
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  #23  
Old 01-25-2016, 08:07 PM
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by skoobey View Post
That's what I was trying to point at. Not everything that is skin has to be a certain shade of red to be read(pun intended) as realistic or just plain pretty.
ANY RGB, Lab or CMYK value is acceptable in your examples and I seriously doubt the OP is looking for that kind of 'guidance' in producing pleasing and acceptable skin tones. Take your portrait examples, select just the skin tones and type Command I in Photoshop and guess what? You just produced yet another (IMHO ugly) image that has really nothing to do with targeting or correcting skin tones. In your examples, ANYTHING goes, any value is legal. You really think that's helpful?
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  #24  
Old 01-26-2016, 04:50 AM
skoobey skoobey is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

Yes, because we are not writers looking for a skin tone definition to put in a dictionary. Anything goes because anything can work or not work, it's about what you want to achieve in an image.
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  #25  
Old 01-26-2016, 05:34 AM
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by klev View Post
Are you saying that photoshop defines HSB coordinates with respect to a specific RGB color space? How did you arrive at that or find it? I would like to look it up myself.
I found it myself rather than any reference (although I am sure there must be many). AFAIK Lab is the only colour space where the 'numbers' remain the same and the image colour is identical regardless of colour space (within the gamut limits of the particular colour space). Whereas the same image colour in any other RGB space or HSB requires quite different values to look the same.

The attached illustrates this with two documents one in sRGB one in ProPhoto. Each filled with the same values in Lab L76, a20, b47. Note the change in HSB and RGB values

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For what it's worth, something like Adobe 1998 can still be regarded as device independent, as it isn't designed to model the behavior of a specific device. It's just more constrained than LAB and depicted with respect to wavelength rather than cone response. Recall that RGB represents an entire class of color spaces.
I am not sure that you can regard Adobe RGB as device independent.

It is my understanding that sRGB was modeled on a theoretical CRT display.

Adobe RGB (1998) was designed to deliver most of the colours achievable on CMYK colour printers using RGB primary colours of a display. So again I think it designed to mimic a device (theoretical).
It was, I believe somewhat of a mistake as it was based on SMPTE 240M figures but some were not correct due to errors at Adobe. However they thought that it was nevertheless a useful space and named it accordingly Adobe RGB (1998)
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File Type: jpg HSB_Lab1.jpg (88.2 KB, 24 views)
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  #26  
Old 01-26-2016, 06:14 AM
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by skoobey View Post
Because it's so hard to just convert the reference images and put them in the same profile...
Sorry I do not quite understand what you mean in answer to my post to your statement "I use HSB. It's all the same thing.", as no conversion is talked about.
"HSB is not the same thing at all...
I think Andrews point is that you do not need to convert to Lab or CMYK and back but use the Lab (therefore constant values across working spaces) values in the Info palette readout.
"

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Fact is HSB is easy to understand, next comes LAB, then CMYK and RGB is the least intuitive. HSB/LAB are the way humans think anyway, and CMYK and RGB are just ways for us to make prints/show things on the screen. If you can go by numbers in LAB or HSB, and you sure can, then why not.
IMHO neither HSB or Lab are particularly easy to understand over RGB or even CMYK at least for most photographers. Many photographers may recall RGB (Tricolour or Additive printing) when a colour material exposed to varying amounts of red, green and blue to produce a full colour image. And CMY (note no K. Subtractive printing), where colour material exposed to Cyan, Magenta and Yellow combinations produce a colour image. Well to be precise only two combination used as three redundant having the effect of an ND filter.

As to HSB and Lab the intent of each is quite different.
HSB is intended to describe colour more intuitively than RGB. For instance British Racing Green is easier to understand than R=1, G=66, B=37 (sRGB). Well at least for those that know British motor racing . Other than that dark green does not quite cut it and RGB figures may be a better choice - but you must also quote working space - unless of course you use Lab values!

L*a*b attempts to define how we perceive colour and is the only device independent space at least that I am aware of. It also covers every perceptible colour and a range of colours that we cannot see - some have called them 'impossible colours' others 'they cannot be colours'

Last edited by Tony W; 01-26-2016 at 06:20 AM.
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  #27  
Old 01-26-2016, 07:39 AM
skoobey skoobey is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

We always work in Adobe RGB unless a client has a specific reason to send you a custom color profile. I was referring to your "reading of values". Of course you'll convert a CMYK sample to RGB before getting the numbers from it in order to apply them to your own image. Or the other way around. You don't want to chase that purple tone when it might not exist in the colorspace client wants. Or whatever color it is.
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  #28  
Old 01-26-2016, 09:52 AM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by skoobey View Post
Yes, because we are not writers looking for a skin tone definition to put in a dictionary. Anything goes because anything can work or not work, it's about what you want to achieve in an image.
WE? Just speak for yourself, certainly not the OP please.

You think you've helped the OP and others by simply joining the discussion by disagreeing? Anyone else here agree that any value for skin is fair game and that helps the OP decide if using Pantone to apply skin tone corrections is useful? I suspect not but maybe....

Look, all you've done with those ugly image examples and your rant is illustrate that you feel any value in any color space on any subject is fair game[/B]. Great tip. I have to wonder if anyone else here shares your disregard for sound values for targeting skin tone. Your contributions or lack thereof for others in targeting skin tone is well now established.

Quote:
We always work in Adobe RGB unless a client has a specific reason to send you a custom color profile. I was referring to your "reading of values".
And in an aid to lurkers and the OP, doesn't matter if the working space is Adobe RGB (1998) or any other RGB color space, two simple lab values one has to understand to target 'acceptable, appealing, expected' skin tone is simple and works!

Thats how to read the values!
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  #29  
Old 01-26-2016, 10:04 AM
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

The RGB color model cannot be truly device independent. An RGB working space is what I prefer to call Quasi-Device Independent because the values are not based on any real world device like all CMYK color spaces (warts, differences and all). An RGB working space is synthetical constructed, simple; three values, math (gamma, chromaticity values for RGB and white point).
That's why they are well behaved unlike CMYK where any three identical values are always neutral. 45/45/45, 98/98/98, 123/123/123 etc. Neutral. Take the values to the bank.

Adobe RGB (1998) and sRGB, ProPhoto RGB are just color spaces, or rather containers. They don't inherently have any information other than specifications for primaries, white point, and gamma. Until we actually have a pixel with it's values, they don’t contain any information.

Lab is device independent, it is based on how we humans 'see color' (and there are indeed some warts in that color model too).

Getting back OT, the beauty of Lab is it's not ambiguous once the WP is defined. In any color space, Lab tells us (within reason); this is what a solid color patch looks like. The bit about a solid color is important and I mentioned briefly how color in context is vastly different than one a color sampler of one or an average of pixels values tells us. That's why looking an the image, not the solid pixel, on a display system you trust along with the numbers is critical.

Of course you can take Skoobey's advise, suggest any color appearance and thus any color values is fair game and just close the Photoshop info palette.
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  #30  
Old 01-26-2016, 12:40 PM
skoobey skoobey is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

I never disagreed with you, I just said that there are more options out there... that obviously makes you very angry and has nothing to do with me.
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