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How to apply Pantone skin tones

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  #51  
Old 01-28-2016, 02:37 AM
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marameo marameo is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by skoobey View Post
No. Multiplying the blue values is there to darken things, yes it affect's the color but it is NOT a color correction method.
Sure enough I have to pop the whites on a level adjustment layer after multiplying the blue values.
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  #52  
Old 01-28-2016, 02:41 AM
klev klev is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by marameo View Post
Yes, they all differ. Also, I notice that if (B*) is higher (A*) than (Y) is always higher than (M) notwithstanding the CMYK sets. So far my ideal skin tone is between 10 and 25 in (B*) with (A*) a few points lower than (B*). When (L) is higher the 70 (K) goes to zero (depending on the CMYK set).

I think I will stick with thinking in LAB and have a look at CMYK from time to time.
I think photoshop's tools are easier to work with in RGB than LAB, but that's just me. A lot of these comments are obvious observations to me, but they don't help you very much. Black ink isn't used in the brightest portions of the image, so it will go to 0. There are very few circumstances where you would really mess with that and for your purposes, none exist.

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Originally Posted by Tony W View Post
Setting Lab values is correct and the thrust of the argument because they are one set of values that remain constant regardless of colour space. Rarely bother setting HSB values but I do expect them to change with a change of colour space

If you mean by selecting a different colour area Lab values would be different - of course! But again the point is use those same Lab values in any other RGB space will get you the same 'colour look' although the RGB and HSB values will be different for each colour space.

You do need to be aware of what you are doing using Lab values as you could push too far and exceed colour space gamut without realising.
Yeah I considered it. I didn't think your earlier samples were likely to be out of range though.

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Originally Posted by Tony W View Post
I very much doubt that this would be the case for any acceptable range of skintones values for the population of this small planet but...

The attached is an example of going too far. The selected colour looks quite different on screen with the same Lab values for a ProPhoto and an sRGB document. You can see that the colour picker has stuck to the edge of the sRGB doc. while staying comfortably within the ProPhoto colour picker.

To bring the image to the same level (using Bruce Lindblooms excellent calculator) would require a Red channel setting of -58 in sRGB and also a minus figure in Adobe RGB. Only within ProPhoto does it appear to be in range.
However I do not really know how it looks due to the fact that it exceed the gamut of my monitor (99% of Adobe RGB) and is likely to exceed any ink/ paper combination. Again I would need to test print to find out if acceptable!
I know what you mean here, and there are other problems. LAB has a very high range, which is why most color engines use it as a profile connection space.

In your previous example 2 samples with the same LAB values looked different on your screen. I assumed it was in range for both, because it wasn't that saturated. It should look the same if they are in fact both unclipped in their respective spaces.

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Originally Posted by marameo View Post
One more question about skin tone; can someone explain what happens when in the channel mixer I set red and green to zero and blue to +100 in each channel and then blend the adjustment layer on mulitply mode? What's the point in pushing the blue channel in multiply mode? Sometimes on top of that I see a second untouched curve adjustment blended in multiply mode. Those layers in multiply mode are normaly lowered in opacity.

Thanks
Setting blue to 100 and the others to 0 for a specific channel means that you want to generate that channel using the blue channel. It's just a direct replacement of your red and green channels with the information from the blue channel.

I don't understand your reasoning for the use of multiply there, so I won't comment on it for now.

I know I suggested channel mixer for heavier corrections, but I certainly didn't suggest multiply. I don't set adjustment layers to anything but normal unless I have a specific reason to do so. I think it works well when you want to achieve a skin density that would otherwise be difficult. It still won't look right if you try to apply a significant tan to a pale model, because the highlights won't look correct.

On a side note, channel mixer can be a little complicated. Sometimes I have to use a few points of a negative value to get things just right. I think this is because the three channels aren't completely independent. They have some overlap in sensitivity range.

I would really advise you not to build up complicated layer structures wherever possible. Overly complex adjustments can easily lead to undesirable side effects.
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  #53  
Old 01-28-2016, 02:58 AM
skoobey skoobey is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by marameo View Post
Sure enough I have to pop the whites on a level adjustment layer after multiplying the blue values.
It's not very useful if you apply it all over the image. It's for the skin only if you're using it to make a person appear more tan. You need to mask the skin to do that successfully.

Also, you can combine any value in the channel mixer. Doesn't have to be just the blue. If you don't want it to affect color drastically when in multiply mode, just tick the "monochrome" option in the channel mixer and mix and match channels. Green is usually the most neutral one within skin.

It's a BAD IDEA to go one direction and then the opposite with adjustments, it degrades the image quality.
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  #54  
Old 01-28-2016, 06:32 AM
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Tony W Tony W is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by klev View Post
....In your previous example 2 samples with the same LAB values looked different on your screen. I assumed it was in range for both, because it wasn't that saturated. It should look the same if they are in fact both unclipped in their respective spaces
If you mean post #25 I was aware of the differences in look of the Picker dialogue. The explanation is simple. I used Windows Snipping tool to grab the Colour Picker dialogue and pasted the capture in as a layer in both Prophoto and sRGB. The capture is made as sRGB so pasting into a Prophoto document the change is not unexpected. Just being a bit lazy as I should have used convert to profile first
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  #55  
Old 01-29-2016, 02:06 PM
klev klev is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by Tony W View Post
If you mean post #25 I was aware of the differences in look of the Picker dialogue. The explanation is simple. I used Windows Snipping tool to grab the Colour Picker dialogue and pasted the capture in as a layer in both Prophoto and sRGB. The capture is made as sRGB so pasting into a Prophoto document the change is not unexpected. Just being a bit lazy as I should have used convert to profile first
Oh... that makes more sense now. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by marameo View Post
Sure enough I have to pop the whites on a level adjustment layer after multiplying the blue values.
Be careful. When your adjustment layer strategies get too complicated, they can make it more difficult to produce consistent results. You are also likely to introduce side effects that may not be immediately apparent. You can end up with things like blocked up shadows that may not look bad to you until you compare against a well done piece.

Sometime the work becomes complicated no matter what, but you still want to minimize the conflict between elements/layers wherever possible. It will help you over the longer term, assuming you stick with this.
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  #56  
Old 01-30-2016, 05:58 AM
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marameo marameo is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by skoobey View Post
It's very complex and at the same time simple because all know these things "by instinct". I was just trying to point out that you can't paint an image like you would your house.
Well, I have seen some videos where the retoucher just uses a solid color in soft light mode and a mask and the outcome seems realistic. I understand it depends a lot on the lighting though.

Would a gradient map add more to it?

I have come to appreciate channel mixer also.

Masking of course is crucial to get the job done right.
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  #57  
Old 01-30-2016, 05:53 PM
skoobey skoobey is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by marameo View Post
Well, I have seen some videos where the retoucher just uses a solid color in soft light mode and a mask and the outcome seems realistic. I understand it depends a lot on the lighting though.

Would a gradient map add more to it?

I have come to appreciate channel mixer also.

Masking of course is crucial to get the job done right.
No, you haven't That can work for correcting SOME areas, but not for the entire image(unless you use like 3o of those). I use that, too(as mentioned in my previous comment) for correcting some areas, but it's not an efficient way to apply a color palette to an image.

Every adjustment has it's use. There is a PDF manual that comes with PS in which every adjustment layer is explained in detail, it's a great read.
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  #58  
Old 01-30-2016, 06:37 PM
klev klev is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by marameo View Post
Well, I have seen some videos where the retoucher just uses a solid color in soft light mode and a mask and the outcome seems realistic. I understand it depends a lot on the lighting though.

Would a gradient map add more to it?

I have come to appreciate channel mixer also.

Masking of course is crucial to get the job done right.
I think channel mixer is under-appreciated, because it provides a way to do some very difficult things with minimal side effects without adding multiple layers.

Gradient mapping can be a mess at times in my experience. Part of this is just in the nature of the implementation and color spaces used. When you apply something like a gradient map or paint in a solid color layer as you mentioned, everything starts to look similar in what I would regard as a bad way.
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  #59  
Old 01-31-2016, 01:23 AM
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german_raf german_raf is offline
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
OR you can learn Lab and only worry about two values in terms of skin and that lesson is true for ALL color spaces!
Or CIE Lch, which is much easier to understand. What could be easier to describe the color through the lightness, chrome and hue? In this case (skintone), it is necessary to remember only the hue numbers.
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  #60  
Old 01-31-2016, 04:49 AM
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Re: How to apply Pantone skin tones

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Originally Posted by german_raf View Post
Or CIE Lch, which is much easier to understand. What could be easier to describe the color through the lightness, chrome and hue? In this case (skintone), it is necessary to remember only the hue numbers.
How would you view CIE Lch numbers in the Photoshop Info window?
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