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Photo Retouching "Improving" photos, post-production, correction, etc.

Looking for some public opinion

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  #11  
Old 08-09-2004, 04:49 PM
happiegirl happiegirl is offline
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From the outside looking in.........My two cents

I am a pageant mother and I realize that from the outside looking in pageants can look terrible to outsiders. My daughter loves doing pageants. She is constantly asking to do one. I was watching TV one day and they had a show about dress up birthday parties for little girls. The little girls had make up girly dresses on. I am sure that none of you are against this. There is thousands of dress up toys out there for little girls. Why? Because, some little girls love them. That is what pageants are about for them. I think pageants have a very bad reputation. I mean at some little league games pageants get in fist fights. I have never seen or even hear of anything like this at a pageant. There are plenty of articles you can read that talk about how terrible pageant are. What about child sports, dancing, music, and gymnastics? Is it ok to put your child in sports do it because it is masculine? But it's not ok to encourage poise, beauty and confidence? Is it because some of these traits are seen as feminine? One of the biggest fears people have is talking in front of people. I mean this fear is right up there with the fear of death. Pageant kids grow up comfortable in front of a crowd. They learn that they are beautiful and important weather they win or lose. They have a blast at pageant meeting all the other contestants. I do wish that you could use natural photos in pageant though. I think the price of everything is getting out of control. There are some pageant moms out there that take their child’s hobby way too far. Some have poor sportsmanship and do push their children into it. I would ask you though if you thought these types of things didn't go on in other children’s competitions.

By the way grafx, I did not find your post offensive. I think it must have been a misinterpretation of what you were trying to say. Words are like that.


Sorry for any misspellings.
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  #12  
Old 08-09-2004, 09:06 PM
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DannyRaphael DannyRaphael is offline
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re: But it's not ok to encourage poise, beauty and confidence?

Are you saying the pageants to which you refer place absolutely zero emphasis on photos, makeup, clothes, hair, jewelry, shoes, etc. as part of any judging criteria and truly promote "inner beauty," poise and confidence?

What's the ultimate goal or "prize" for participating in these pageants?

~Danny~

p.s. Don't worry about the spelling. Einstein was lously at it himself.
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  #13  
Old 08-09-2004, 10:00 PM
happiegirl happiegirl is offline
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Inner Beauty

Of course pageants are about facial beauty, clothes, shoes, hair, and all of that. There is an interview portion of some pageants. Here contestants are judged on personality ect. When someone is beautiful inside it just shines though. I can't explain it. It's like trying to explain why a flower is beautiful. I wish we could use natural photos for pageants. Unfortunately, natural photos don't normally do well against the fully retouched photos. Clothes are important in most pageants, but not all pageants. They are important in ice skating and dancing as well. The cost of pageant clothing can be unbelievable but some people have the money for it. If they have the money to spend, it is theirs to do with as they please.

Everyone has different reasons for entering pageants. I know a lot of older girls that grew up doing pageants. They aren’t shy at all. They are self-confident and aren’t afraid to talk in front of anyone. Good communication skills are very important in life. This is what I want for my daughter. Plus, pageants are lots of fun for her. I know there are probably other things I could do for her, but this is what I have chosen. What is the ultimate goal of children’s sports, dancing, and gymnastics?
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  #14  
Old 08-09-2004, 11:07 PM
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roger_ele roger_ele is offline
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Happiegirl,

Congratulations on expressing yourself so well - I will try to remember that some of the people in the pagaent community share your well rounded views. I have had a prejudice for bueaty contests of all ages for as long as I can remember - fueled by the surreal caracature that I find in the contestants. I am a Pro Photographer and have turned down beauty pagaent jobs over the years.

No one doubts that there are good people and motivations in the pageant world. There are some of us that will probably always twitch and some that will always enjoy it, but thanks for the insight - my views have softened.

From one who also suffers from spelling challenges,
Roger
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  #15  
Old 08-10-2004, 06:43 AM
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dslinger dslinger is offline
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Happiegirl, I hear what you are saying about inner beauty. Perhaps that would be more apparent to me, and others who view children's pageants with some distress, if the girls were not made up to look like adults. It bothers me to see a 6 year old made up to look 20 years old.

I would love to see the day when girls are encouraged to be without makeup, hairspray, dieting and elaborate clothing to be considered beautiful. As the mother of a 16 year old girl, I am conscious of her struggle to fit in and be seen as beautiful. The burden on girls and women to be attractive is already large, and I see pageants (both children's and adult's) as exacerbating it. Exterior beauty is an accident, inner beauty is acquired.

I know you are not abusing your daughter, and I know that you are encouraging her to find her talents and her strengths so that she can see all the beauty she possesses as a human. That's all we can do as parents to keep the concept of beauty in perspective.

Grafx, it's a fine line we walk when working for clients (in any aspect) between saying what is true for us and keeping the peace to keep our jobs. I agree with those that posted here- it's all a matter of individual perception and there's nothing you can do about misinterpretation. You will never say the "right" thing for everyone.

I personally didn't interpret your words as slamming pageants. However, if there is a person already wondering if they are doing the right thing, they are going to feel defensive about it. IMHO, if someone is confident they are right, there's no need for them to worry about anyone else's opinion of what they do.
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  #16  
Old 08-10-2004, 08:33 AM
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DannyRaphael DannyRaphael is offline
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Happiegirl:

I have no problem with your intentions or goals, however I'm pretty much on the same page as dslinger in this conversation. (One slight disagreement: (so-called) beauty can be acquired via Nip, tuck, Botox, suction & augment.)

In this country females are bombarded constantly from the time they're able to browse magazines or start watching TV with the message, "You're not good enough as is and won't be happy until you buy the right clothes, get the right jewelry, wear the purfume of the day, color your hair, wear the Victoria's Secret sexy lingere, make your butt smaller, wear the right makeup, make your boobs bigger, lose weight so you can squeeze into those tight, form-fitting jeans, etc." As an observer of women over the years, it's my opinion that advertising is very effective and has turned many beautiful (to me) women into lifelong, self-doubting worry worts. Reinforcing this message at such an early age through the pageant environment would concern me a great deal. "Mommy: Why didn't I win? Well, honey, Mary's parents paid for better pictures and got her that cuter outfit."

While there's no doubt that physical beauty can open doors and no one questions the value of poise, public speaking skills and self-confidence, acquiring those attributes in the pageant atmosphere you describe is not how I would want my eight year old daughter to acquire them.
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  #17  
Old 08-10-2004, 09:58 AM
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grafx grafx is offline
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Going WAY off the subject

Alrighty we have yet another deep rooted philosophical debate going again and I can see it now..."I saw your username on a board that was anti-pageant" ACK!!! Will it NEVER end!
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  #18  
Old 08-10-2004, 11:41 AM
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Chip Hildreth Chip Hildreth is offline
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Hey grafx, they don't call'em threads for nothin'! Well off the subject yes, but good discourse none the less.

Seems to me, you could alleviate a lot of the pressure on a contestant's appearance and focus more on wholeness by kicking out some of the judges. They are, effectively, the customers in pagent competition and they determine the direction and emphasis of the competitors. Perhaps if judges were themselves more into being whole they would award a participant's expression of being whole instead of just pretty.
It seems rough on a kid to compete based purely on beauty of character and perhaps that is not what pagents are about. With sports and games, much of the outcome is based on experience, training, preparation, attitude and, well, luck. When someone fails in that kind of competition, you can usually point to some behavioral breakdown like " i didn't practice enough" and character is preserved.

Just so I can make my own position clear. We all have choose our own way in terms of right, wrong, good or bad. If you believe your child should play rugby, good; if you want then to do pagents, cool, your call... I doubt rugby and pagents would go well together, but you could always try it.

I have never been to a pagent. What is it like for a little girl to lose, or rather, not win a pagent? Can they see that it is not a reflection of who they are?

chip
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  #19  
Old 08-10-2004, 12:28 PM
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grafx grafx is offline
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Chip you are a hoot!
You know I had to make that post....CYA kinda thing.

Did you see that posting back on the "make-up on little kids" saying we should do our own retouch competition/pageant? Cannabilize parts and make our own contestants (doesn't even need to be human). Could be fun, use some of those specialized brushes/actions in our arsenals. I really don't think beauty should be a main focus though. We need some really creative "judging" categories. "Most interesting in swimwear", "Most complex mane", "Best in Show", "Most natural in ones habitat"? LMAO!

I dunno, my brain is turning to mush. I'm running FontDoctor here at work trying to fix 4 years of inherited fonts...JOY!
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  #20  
Old 08-10-2004, 01:01 PM
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Chip Hildreth Chip Hildreth is offline
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I'm totally game for a RetouchPro Pagent challenge or contest. Gives me a chance to work on my Weekly World News portfolio.

We won honorable mention in a best dressed dog photo contest a while back by putting a little tuxedo on a frog and adding a sign apologizing "Sorry, we thought you said best dressed FROG!". Great publicity.
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