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Looking for some public opinion

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Old 07-29-2004, 08:22 PM
grafx's Avatar
grafx grafx is offline
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Looking for some public opinion

I am not trying to get readers or anything, but I was wondering if some of you good folks could do a search on posts under my name and tell me if I'm for or against pageant kids/parents. One of my individual clients found some of my posts and interpreted them as meaning I am against pageants and their practices. The client finds it offensive that I would have posts in a forum that was bashing pageants etc., yet accept money for doing the retouches. Please tell me If I was bashing or going on about the retouching aspect of it. Perhaps I am reading my own thoughts into the text I've typed. I am completely at a loss and feel like I've been attacked. Terrible feeling.
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Old 07-29-2004, 10:51 PM
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DannyRaphael DannyRaphael is offline
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So there's no doubt in your mind, you definitely have been attacked, most likely due to common cause of misunderstanding.

Studies have shown that when people communicate, less than 10% of the intended message (the point, if you will) comes from the spoken or written words and more than 90% of the meaning comes from non-verbal cues like body language and voice inflection.

Since there's no possibility of verbal cues or voice inflection in forums and e-mails (except emoticoms like , that "missing" 90%+ of meaning must be "made up" by the reader... and it's not at all uncommon for one to come to the wrong conclusion.

What you "wrote" and "meant" may not count for much. What the reader "read into it" and ass-u-me-d is what got you into trouble.

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Old 07-30-2004, 01:17 AM
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Gary Richardson Gary Richardson is offline
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Hi, I've read through a few of your posts, and the only one I've found that could be misinterpreted were on an original post by Doosume 04-05-2004.

If read out of context, and selectively it could be thought that you were against pageant queens.

I quote " I agree they don't look like real children, but most are impressive for what they are (whatever that might be).

For someone who has very thin skin, and is feeling very defensive, it could be thought that you were saying their child was not normal.

I know this is totally out of context to your other comments on this thread, but people will select what they want to see.

In my opinion, the whole concept of pageant queens is not natural. Children are not toys to dress up and parade to the world, and thank god it only happens in the USA.
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Old 07-30-2004, 04:44 AM
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Flora Flora is offline
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I also read some of your posts and got to the point Gary mentioned.... With that comment you were simply stating a fact ....

Originally Posted by grafx
The client finds it offensive that I would have posts in a forum that was bashing pageants etc.,
Disagreeing with, not bashing .... I think this would happen in any forum anywhere.... that's the beauty of humans ... we all have different opinions ....
I just wander if everybody in the family or friends circle of that client of yours blindly agrees with and approves of 'pageants and their practices' .... If not ... will the disagreeing parties be banned or executed on the spot?

The only things a client can expect are jobs well done and reliability and the only thing that should be attacked is the lack of one or both of these qualities ... for the rest, you are entitled to your opinions just as your clients and everybody else are!

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Old 07-30-2004, 05:53 AM
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grafx grafx is offline
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Agreeing to disagree

Been having emailed conversations w/client. I think it will boil down to agreeing to disagree. The post she had problems with was this one:

"I personally would not tan a child, slather on make-up, or bleach their hair, but as a professional, if a client asks me to do a pageant "glam" I ask how "glam" do they want it. I'd rather do it digitally then have the parents make them up like Tammy Faye and snap a picture. I try to keep the look of a porcelain doll, or even more natural when possible. I often find myself digitally removing the make-up originally put on the child and evening out the tone. Re-drawing the eyelashes is generally a requirement since the mascara is so clumpy. My advice to parents is to take pictures with just natural looking kids, then if you want it done have a retoucher do the rest."

This is the one that she said was offensive and that I was speaking against pageants. I think DannyRaphael was right in those stats. What bothered me the most was that she didn't go to me, instead she when to the photographer, who has no foundation where the conversation came from. If I didn't know the photographer well and she me, it could have been a big case of damage control.

A lesson in humanity I guess. I personally need to learn to be more thick-skinned, but when something I said, typed etc is taken out of context and I hear it second hand it was rather upsetting.
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Old 07-30-2004, 08:09 AM
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Doug Nelson Doug Nelson is offline
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I've heard of Googleing potential dates before, but potential retouchers?

In case she ever considers hiring me, I'll state right here that I feel it's a mild form of child abuse and akin to pedophilia.
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Old 07-30-2004, 02:02 PM
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Chip Hildreth Chip Hildreth is offline
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Awwww, come on Doug, don't sugar coat it! We can't go having OPINIONS exchanged around here, now can we?

Seriously, I read through your posts and hesiatated at the one you mention and thin skinned folks came to mind. The fact that it was well out of context exacerbates things a bit too. I was in on those threads, which were help requests, and the people involved in pagent work were on the defensive after having their ethics questioned. Your statement reflects that by explaining your personal attitude and separating it from your professional attitude. Nearly as I can tell, you're a pro retoucher with a pagent work as your market niche.

I just finished restoring some photos a producing a political campaign brochure for a guy who I didn't vote for. I liked him just fine but we didn't see eye to eye on a few political issues. I took his money and I voted for someone else. Does that make me a bad guy?

This gets a little off the subject but for some reason I feel compelled to say it.

I shared my views about little girls and big makeup and exhibition of same in another pagent related thread. They are conflicting and I don't have a pat answer to resolve them.
I will state without conflict that I do imaging work, as a professional... FOR THE MONEY. I've been a business owner for going on 15 years now and, while I believe it is crucial to first do what you love, if you decide to do it professionally, do it for the money. That is not, in my opinion, a breach of ethics. Good, bad or indifferent, in the USA, that is how you survive unless you have a trust fund somewhere.

I'm an idealist at heart but become very realistic when I sit down to pay bills.

With that said, I will now go and make that donation to RetouchPro I've been wanting to make.

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Old 08-02-2004, 06:30 AM
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grafx grafx is offline
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I now know why I joined this forum

I LOVE YOU GUYS! (and gals too of course)

It is a terrible thing when you get so exhausted with the little battles that you begin to wonder if it is all worth it. Then you trudge thru, pick up the tablet tool, pop in an audiobook and you're going again. Sometimes I wish you could do business without the personal contact part...LOL!

I thank everyone for their wonderful posts. Not only helpful, but objective as well. This place is the bomb and Chip, you SERIOUSLY crack me up!
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Old 08-02-2004, 08:16 AM
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Ed_L Ed_L is offline
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Originally Posted by grafx
"I personally would not tan a child, slather on make-up,
My personal opinion is that it is a sin for children to be used like that. If I were of the opposite opinion, I probably would have been upset by using the word "slather". But I totally agree with you. That's exactly what it is. As has been pointed out, when there are bills to pay, they have to be paid. Only thge person doing the work can decide if doing certain things is going past the line of ethics.

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Old 08-02-2004, 01:04 PM
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Janet Petty Janet Petty is offline
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my two cents worth on pageants

I live in an area of the country where pageants are the "in" thing for children. I do not personally support them; and I absolutely refused to let my children become involved with them when they were small.

I think it is pathetic to think that the only self esteem a child can have is how physically beautiful they are. If a parent wants to show off their children, I believe they should be teaching them respect, honor, integrity, esteem, manners, and inner beauty--teach them how to be happy within themselves. That way they will be an honor to their parents in a true sense. They will know who they are and walk in the beauty of self confidence. Sadly, most do not get it. They will rent a costume and get a child's hair all done up, dress them up like Madame Alexander dolls and parade them around...ugh! (The cost of renting a dress, getting the child's hair done; etc. is astronomical.)

Lastly, in the world we live in, we must recognize that others have the same rights to choices and consequences that we have. We cannot legislate their behavior unless it steps into societally unaccepted norms and the law is broken.

I would photograph a pageant. My stomach would turn at the very thought of what those parents/grandparents are doing to their children (living, breathing people not dolls); but I would just because that person involved would want those memories. I would respect their right to be part of a pageant.
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