[Stephen A]

Originally Posted by Markzebra

Stephen A. You say about apple hardware "However, their hardware is usually pretty watery at best." Does that include durability, and build quality ? I've been using macs for 12 years and had only one hardrive collapse on me in that time.

Uhhh... Apple doesn't make their hard drives, so that's a pretty bad example - they use off the shelf hard drives. :P

Originally Posted by Markzebra

"I can build a PC that's ~1.5x-2x better than a Apple for the same price." Ok, reliability aside, in what other way is $700 worth of PC hardware better than my Dual G5?

Did you dual G5 cost you $700 when it was new?

[Godmother]

Originally Posted by DJSoulglo

with the rise of popularity of the Mac, and the increasing number of people using them, there now actually are virusses that target just the Mac.

I still think the Macs are nice looking computers that do their job quite well, but are WAY WAY WAY WAY overpriced and a hassle to upgrade.

I've been using Windows Vista for a while now and have had not a single problem yet.

Are there bugs in windows software? Hell yes. Are here bugs in Mac OSX? Hell yes. About 5 years ago, there was a distinction between stability, now however there isn't anymore. You can debate till death and there are hardcore PC users and hardcore Mac users. I am neither, but value for money, you can't really beat a PC. I buy a new one every now and again, however if I don't need to upgrade the RAM, I can carry it over. If I don't want a new case, I keep the case. With a Mac.... well.... good luck with upgrading.

And when is Mac going to put some decent videocards in their machines?

I'd vote PC

So you never used a mac right?

PC crashes... 98/XP/Vista you name it! it crashes! Macs don't, ever, ever
Think about fluid use of Photoshop, no delays, no crashes, no strange noises lol

I have the PC on the side (My bf uses it to work) and it's horrid to hear it constantly.

And... upgrades... you need to upgrade your PC because it gets OLD the minute after you bought it.... macs work as new even years (I have a 5 year old imac and it's so faithful it's scary) after you bought them.

Now I work on the new imac aluminium and it's simply a beauty.

I've used both and I don't understand how someone who has used BOTH still debates

Good luck

[Stephen A]

Originally Posted by Godmother

PC crashes... 98/XP/Vista you name it! it crashes! Macs don't, ever, ever
Think about fluid use of Photoshop, no delays, no crashes, no strange noises lol

It greatly depends on the hardware you're using. If you're using average hardware (cheap) you won't have a very good user experience. Sadly, a lot of big stores sell PCs that have cheap parts in them, so there are a lot of driver conflicts and just bad programming which gunks everything up.

That's not to say every cheap PC will crash often, but most will - independant of the OS. Crashing isn't the operating system's fault in most cases, it's the drivers and their interactions with the OS that usually cause the problems. If I had to make an analogy I guess it would be like a grandfather clock. You buy the body, and some of the main gears, then you try to carve the rest you need out of foam, and when you find the foam cracks and the pieces jam everything up - you blame the the other metal gears which came with it.

Most of the computers I've put together were carefully selected, and as I've got a bit older and made a bit more money I've been fortunate enough to select higher quality parts. As a result, my computer rarely crashes - and when it does, it's usually my fault (opening several insanely hi-res files at once... although when I say crash I mean specifically a program). My computer has only once entirely locked up and I've been using it for two years now (on almost constantly, at that!).

Originally Posted by Godmother

And... upgrades... you need to upgrade your PC because it gets OLD the minute after you bought it.... macs work as new even years (I have a 5 year old imac and it's so faithful it's scary) after you bought them.

I guess I'll refer to my grandfather clock analogy again. If you want it to work with foam gears, you will constantly have to carve new gears for it until you can afford wood, and then after that it's metal.

Upgrading the metal gears is much less often. On the note of "Metalgear" I'll assume your boyfriend games a lot? That's usually the only reason a person needs to upgrade their computer. That's Apple's one major downsides, their game selection is minuscule in comparison to Windows. The next is that their run of the mill computer, which costs considerably more than a run of the mill PC, isn't that potent hardware wise - although they're always better than the el cheapos from Future Shop and the sort.

Originally Posted by Godmother

I've used both and I don't understand how someone who has used BOTH still debates

When I say this, I'm not trying to be a smarty pants, but using does not equate knowing. What I mean is I know Windows very well, and because of that I can use it very well.

However, I don't know Mac OS very well, but since it's so intuitive I can (for general purpose) use it very well. Ask me to change the port my network connects on and I'm lost like a child in a parking lot.

It's actually a sort of funny situation; I find the Apple is better for the run of the mill user, since it's so easy to use and generally very stable (although, in my experience, the eMacs are TRASH). And while a PC of equivalent value will be stable, it won't be as easy to use - which is what causes so much commotion.

The right tool for different jobs.

Originally Posted by Godmother

So you never used a mac right

Oy, on that note - has anyone else suffered the terrible experience of using an eMac? Constantly it would crash programs. And not the "Oh no! It's slowing down and may crash soon!" sort of crash, the sort that goes something like this... "Oh man, this design is so nice. Now I'll just move my mouse to select this tool... and it just closed? ... my design? "

I'm guessing it's specific to the eMacs, as I rarely encounter crashing on other Apples I've used.

[plugsnpixels]

A few years ago for my higher-ed lab we ordered 13 eMacs, and 2 or 3 were DOA. There was some known issue with a video-related part. Other than that they were decent machines at the time, and heavy as anchors. I've still got a couple that were in use until recently and are now in the haul-off pile.

Now we have two labs of aluminum iMacs and two of the previous model Intel iMac. Computer labs really test the quality of your machines, and most of the Macs (since we got rid of the 8500s and 17" AppleVision monitors years ago!) have been quite reliable. Besides those awful AppleVisions, the white G5 iMac model has had the most repairs (again, a known issue with bad capacitors). Our dual-533 G4s were quite reliable, aside from an occasional failure of the IBM DeathStar hard drives.

We used to have purchased-new Dells across the hall, but they were so badly obsolete after 2 years, unlike those G4 Mac towers which we got seven years' use out of in the labs (and now various faculty are still using them).

[pixelzombie]

that reminds me of my time at schawk, when they purchased new machines for the pre-press area the old machines would then be used by the csr's and they would take the csr's old machine and sell them to the employees, so each mac got to live 3 lives so to speak...

[Stephen A]

Originally Posted by plugsnpixels

We used to have purchased-new Dells across the hall, but they were so badly obsolete after 2 years, unlike those G4 Mac towers which we got seven years' use out of in the labs (and now various faculty are still using them).

Blah. Dells are shit unless you spend a fortune on them, which is generally how it is with everything else in life. lol

[CJ Swartz]

Originally Posted by DJSoulglo

...You can debate till death and there are hardcore PC users and hardcore Mac users. ...

Okay, let's get back to photography... and NOT Canon vs Nikon vs Olympus vs Fuji vs Pentax vs ....

[Markzebra]

"Did you dual G5 cost you $700 when it was new?" no but your $700 PC is equivalent to a $1200 mac? (1.5x-2) Ok, maybe thats an unfair comparison.

Apple "isn't that potent hardware wise - although they're always better than the el cheapos from Future Shop and the sort." - can you be more specific? in what way is your PC BETTER than the equivalent priced mac hardware? faster? Not that interested in frame rates, and games. I use my mac for 90% Photoshop. 10% ... Invoicing ;-)

[Stephen A]

Originally Posted by Markzebra

no but your $700 PC is equivalent to a $1200 mac? (1.5x-2) Ok, maybe thats an unfair comparison.

Actually... I said you could get a better PC for the same amount. The whole is less than the sum of the parts.

Originally Posted by Markzebra

can you be more specific? in what way is your PC BETTER than the equivalent priced mac hardware? faster?

That relates directly to a the "el cheapo" PC statement. You won't find a equivalent Apple to such a PC... well aside from the mini mac, which I'm sure is fine for browsing the intertubes and playing the odd movie now and then, but probably pretty trashy for any serious business.

Originally Posted by Markzebra

Not that interested in frame rates, and games. I use my mac for 90% Photoshop. 10% ... Invoicing ;-)

In a way that's like asking someone how much they make a year, and then telling them you're not interested in dollars. The newer Creative Suites are designed to utilize the GPU (Graphics Processing Unit) on your video card where previously they were just "In ur ram, slowin ur processin".

What sort of work do you do on your computer (you mentioned photoshop)? I do web design for the most part and the odd restoration now and then, and even less frequently I do a retouch - but that's almost the exact opposite with my hobbies, with the exception of gaming being on top.

Now that Apple has switched over to the x86 architecture you will see less and less of this bible-thumping behavior from Apple fans. It's no longer "apples and oranges" now it's just "Granny Smiths and Golden Delicious'" (I'll let you decided which OS is which, hah).

[Markzebra]

Can you find a single comparative speed test online that rates any PC hardware faster than current macs for running Photoshop CS3? I can't.

So it turns out that "I can build a PC that's ~1.5x-2x better than a Apple for the same price."only means that you can build a PC that is better than a min mac? hmm maybe, but Ill be damned if its reliable

I'm a retoucher, sometimes need to work on layered files above 1gig. Thats one reason, but heres 2 other reasons I could never use a PC to do my job - I hate the PC keyboard, its design, shortcuts. I hate the Operating System in too many ways to say.

I have a pc laptop at home running XP, and am forced to learn maintenance techniques such as typing Msconfig into the run window, and run registry cleaner etc just to get it to run at its best speed. Ridiculous. A worldwide IT industry propped up by Microsoft. When I say "propped up" I mean that without Microsoft's ingeniously stupid operating system 70% of them would be out of work. I work in studios where everyone is on a mac (design and retouching studios), In most of these situations you don't need to pay an IT man 50k a year. Speaks for itself

Back to bed, my St James awaits.

[Stephen A]

Originally Posted by Markzebra

Can you find a single comparative speed test online that rates any PC hardware faster than current macs for running Photoshop CS3? I can't.

Yes, after a very lengthy Google search (5 seconds) I did find numerous examples. However, they're all outdated (which comes as no surprise, most comparisons are).

Originally Posted by Markzebra

So it turns out that "I can build a PC that's ~1.5x-2x better than a Apple for the same price."only means that you can build a PC that is better than a min mac? hmm maybe, but Ill be damned if its reliable

Right, you're going to want to read the entire sentence of the statement. I was comparison shitty PCs with shitty Apples, and made the statement that Apple didn't really make any "shitty" computers, with exception of the mini-mac. Not really sure how you put the two together, but anyways.

Originally Posted by Markzebra

I'm a retoucher, sometimes need to work on layered files above 1gig. Thats one reason, but heres 2 other reasons I could never use a PC to do my job - I hate the PC keyboard, its design, shortcuts. I hate the Operating System in too many ways to say.

I'm using a Apple keyboard on my PC right now, but that's only because it was a gift... Anywho... Right, opening large files. You realize that is OS independent and relies entirely on the hardware? So I don't see why you keep bringing the OS into this, aside from "ease of use" which I've already admitted is the leading point Apple has - and is indeed why I would buy one over a PC if I wasn't such a gamer.

You'd think I was insulting his mother, or something.

What I'm saying is, for the hardware you get when you buy a Apple, you could get a better PC for roughly 1/2 to 1.5/2 the price of the Apple. Mind you, I'm talking about building it myself and installing Mac OSX on it. And the fact of the matter is practically everyone can do both of those things now a days, so it's not like I'm talking rocket science here. Sure, it's complex if you're new to it, but mostly everyone that's owned a computer for atleast 10 years knows how to use it well, and how to work on them - they could do this.

Originally Posted by Markzebra

I have a pc laptop at home running XP, and am forced to learn maintenance techniques such as typing Msconfig into the run window, and run registry cleaner etc just to get it to run at its best speed. Ridiculous.

In my opinion, this is roughly the same as saying, "I bought this Mercedes and I'm forced to do silly things like check my oil and windshield fluid every such and such a amount of miles!"

typing "msconfig" isn't exactly daunting, and neither is running an automated registry maintenance tool, so I don't really see where this complaint stems from to begin with. But these are just poor examples - because there is in fact things you need to do to maintain your system. However, I don't have to do many of these things very often, and that is because I am pretty computer savvy.

But once again, this is becoming repetitive. I've already stated that for general purpose the Apple is a better computer. They're very easy to use, and very reliable. The reason you probably have trouble with your laptop (especially laptops) is because the company probably has cheap components in it, more specifically components with cheap support.

However, if you're trying to tell me that - despite running on the same architecture (x86) Apple somehow puts wizards and magical bunnies into the products that somehow make them different from PCs... I'm going to have a hard time believing it.

Originally Posted by Markzebra

A worldwide IT industry propped up by Microsoft. When I say "propped up" I mean that without Microsoft's ingeniously stupid operating system 70% of them would be out of work.

... I'm just going to make a point of this to illustrate how biased you're behaving.

On the interwebs we call that being a "fanboy".

Originally Posted by Markzebra

I work in studios where everyone is on a mac (design and retouching studios), In most of these situations you don't need to pay an IT man 50k a year. Speaks for itself

Right, and a lot of businesses are switching over to Apple for their stability - this is entirely true, and a good idea. But go back 10, even 5 years and the tools businesses needed weren't available on Apple computers. So this is a sort of moot point. ]:

Originally Posted by Markzebra

Back to bed, my St James awaits.

I googled this and found a lot of pictures of churches, and a few of babes. I'm going to assume you meant a babe.

[superkoax]

Originally Posted by Markzebra

Stephen A. You say about apple hardware "However, their hardware is usually pretty watery at best." Does that include durability, and build quality ? I've been using macs for 12 years and had only one hardrive collapse on me in that time.

"I can build a PC that's ~1.5x-2x better than a Apple for the same price." Ok, reliability aside, in what other way is $700 worth of PC hardware better than my Dual G5?

In my 13 years with pc I have had no harddrive crashes! I still have my first computer for gaming fun! old 486 dx2 8mb ram, 64mb harddrive! Good old AST computers! Still kicking! I also have my old commodore 64 and my old Amstrad!

[chillin]

Originally Posted by superkoax

In my 13 years with pc I have had no harddrive crashes! I still have my first computer for gaming fun! old 486 dx2 8mb ram, 64mb harddrive!...

What is the frequency of your 486, Gerry?

[pixelzombie]

i think St James refers to a scotch or whiskey...

[Markzebra]

Sorry "King James" I meant, its a little tattered and its got an apple logo on the front cover. And leave my mother out of it