Lens to use and copy table

[bcarll]

In the restoration forum someone mentioned using a copy table or copy stand to photo an older picture too large to scan. Does anyone have plans for a copy table for this do it yourselfer ? What lights do you use etc. Also any suggestions on a good lens to purchase for this type project. Does it have to be macro? I am using a Canon XT digital.

bcarll

[Mike]

Rude and crude, take a regular table, place it so you have some room at one end or side, mount your camera on a tripod, lay the tripod flat on the table with its legs together, place some heavy objects (books or bricks or?) on the legs so the tripod will not tip off the table and point the camera at the original that is laying on the floor beneath it.

Lights can be most anything as long as you can adjust them so that they are of equal intensity on the original. Remember that light changes intensity when the distance from the light to the original changes. If doing color include a color chart on one of the images then balance the others to it. It really does not make any difference what the color temperature of the lights are, adjust your white balance to it.

Macro's are better but it depends on fussy you are and on the size of the original. It is better to use all of the cameras frame rather than just part of it.

Hope this helps.

[mfischer]

Get a cheap old enlarger from ebay, remove the head and mount your camera there.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by mfischer

Get a cheap old enlarger from ebay, remove the head and mount your camera there.

Not a bad idea, especially if one could find an old Omega with the column that goes up at an angle rather than an enlarger with a vertical column.

But I am not sure that one would have to buy one on ebay. I spent 2 years or so trying to sell a Omega 4x5 enlarger, then another year trying to give it away for free!

[0lBaldy]

On the cheap.. made for coins but could be adapted for larger pictures.. the level is a great idea to keep things parallel
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/t...TOPIC_ID=19857

[Cameraken]

Hi bcarll

A scanner is still the easiest way.

If a picture is too big for the scanner then scan it in sections and stitch it back together.

There is a tutorial here

http://retouchpro.com/tutorials/?m=show&id=125

Ken.

[AFrazier]

Agreed. I have done that with quite a few over sized prints. Just do it in sections and put it back together. Not only can you get the whole image, but you can scan it at ridiculous resolution. You're not likely to get that by shooting it with a camera, since the sensor's resolution will be divided over the entire image surface. You're lighting will be better too.

[PixFixGuy]

Both ideas are good, shooting it and scanning in sections. I do both. REally depends what you are using it for. I prefer the quickest most trouble free way for the use in the end. As for the copy-stand, if your going to use it on a regular basis (few times a month even) Use a table or even the floor, two cheap lightstands and two cheap 12 inch (10" OK) reflectors with 150 watt or equivalent fluorescent type bulbs. Set them on each side about 4 ft away for good light dispersion and at 30 degrees (I know 45 is what everyone likes) so that the light washes over the thing your copying. Set a white balance and have fun.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by AFrazier

Agreed. I have done that with quite a few over sized prints. Just do it in sections and put it back together. Not only can you get the whole image, but you can scan it at ridiculous resolution. You're not likely to get that by shooting it with a camera, since the sensor's resolution will be divided over the entire image surface. You're lighting will be better too.

Interesting that I can take my camera, produce an image of a person, enlarge that image to fill a 30 x 40 inch print and be able to count the hairs on the subjects head, but not have enough resolution to copy say an old photo and make a decent print from it?

[PixFixGuy]

Well, when shooting life the light is there, the contrast range is there, shape and color are there, it's a feast meant for a lens. Take that same lens and copy a photo or any flat art and not too pretty. It really isn't about pretty it's about duplicating. Remember, real life has big dynamic range but what your copying has a very short range by contrast (OK so I made a pun) so if you copy something with at most a dynamic range of 2.0 fix it in post. In the film days we printed it on a more contrasty paper to get some umph back, and soooo, the beat goes on.

[Sweetlight]

If you are going to make one from scratch you can use two tungsten hotlights, one on each side at about 45-degrees at the subject. I would suggest buying some polarizing film from the cam store or a theater supply. Shoot the lights through that. You also need a polarizing filter that will take any stray glare away. Shooting digital you probably wanna shoot in tungsten setting.

c

[Mike]

Originally Posted by PixFixGuy

Well, when shooting life the light is there, the contrast range is there, shape and color are there, it's a feast meant for a lens. Take that same lens and copy a photo or any flat art and not too pretty. It really isn't about pretty it's about duplicating. Remember, real life has big dynamic range but what your copying has a very short range by contrast (OK so I made a pun) so if you copy something with at most a dynamic range of 2.0 fix it in post. In the film days we printed it on a more contrasty paper to get some umph back, and soooo, the beat goes on.

When I did copy work on film, we picked a film/developer combination that would give us the result that we wanted. The dynamic range of the original (either a scene or a print that you want to copy) can easily be entered into a proper tone reproduction cycle that will indicate the expected result before you even click the shutter.

With digital files, it is even easier to adjust so that the output falls where you want it in comparison to the original.

I would suggest that if your results photographing something with a small dynamic range is not coming out well, show us some examples and we will all gather around and see if we can help.

[PixFixGuy]

Mike, we got a little off track. The message that quoted was me trying to explain why the is a difference between real life shooting and making a copy of a photo or whatever.....Oh, that was you........well, I do have it pretty much worked out and so do you. Your right about shooting with film, picked a exposure/dev combo for transparencies and the same for B/W film set to a #3 paper (+/–) but we are in the digital age, thank goodness, so it's much easer. Anyway, I'm OK, just trying to be helpful.

[Sweetlight]

Is it me that keeps taking this stuff off track?? I swear I have mad cow, lyme disease or pig flu......
I am losing my mind

[Mike]

I will keep an eye out for your mind, but have seen very few running around here lately

I think this medium is designed to help one go off track. And I am not so sure that that is a bad thing. Very often one finds out more as the conversation wanders around than he would if it stayed on the straight and narrow.

Maybe the original poster could chime in with a critique of our comments. But maybe thats not really a good idea?????

[Southbay]

FWIW, I do my makeshift copy stand work using Philips 5,000K CFs, from the local Home Depot. I light my work area with these as well, as they closely approximate daylight.

[PixFixGuy]

Hi;
When using those 5K CF lights, trust nobody. As a sorta self check do a white card balance anyway. Better safe than you know what. As for going off track, nothing new. If you study Talmud you discover that all those really smart guys 2500 years ago drifted off subject in their discussions on a regular basis (check out the Congressional Record). However they always got back to the point and came up with very good and modern stuff even by todays standards. Why should we be different. Now bcarll knows all that be needed to make good copies and why. Not so bad. Subject drift makes it fun.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I always have problems shooting from overhead, you have to be so close and use such a wide angle that it distorts the image and makes it really hard to get the edges straight and parallel (it gets worse the larger the photo.)

Professionally you want to shoot with a longer lens, it helps so much with distortion but also with the lighting (look up family of angles with reflection) basically imagine if the image your copying is a mirror, the closer you are to the mirror with a wider lens the more you will be able to see the entire room including your lighting reflecting in the mirror. The farther you are with a longer lens the less you will see the whole room and lighting (if placed with two lights at 45 degree angles, the farther off to the sides of the work the lights are the less chance they have of showing up in your photo as a direct reflection) again look up family of angles with lighting. I don't know if this makes much scene, but just look at a mirror through a viewfinder and see how you can see much more of the room in the selection when you are close to the mirror as opposed to when you are farther back and zoomed in.

If you are too close you will get whats called direct reflection of your lighting (just think of glare in your TV) that will mess up your copy. From over head I always have to get a ladder which isn't easy to set up and constantly be climbing down and up making adjustments with. So I place the work on a plywood board or something and prop it up at like 45 degree angle and set the camera far away facing down at a 45 degree angle...

A copy table is likely a table with 2 or 4 lights attached by arms that are connected to the table that are off to the side out of the family of angles with a tripod like thing also connected to the table that hold the camera above the photo.

Make sure you use a gray card/color checker to match colors.

[PixFixGuy]

For what good this will do, here goes. I like using longer lens and lighting set at a lower angle than 45 degrees to get things lit flatter. I also use a polarizing filter to help prevent glare. That does help. If you don't have a copy-stand, a tripod with a horizontal arm that would allow you to point the camera straight down is a nifty thing. Have fun.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Originally Posted by PixFixGuy

For what good this will do, here goes. I like using longer lens and lighting set at a lower angle than 45 degrees to get things lit flatter. I also use a polarizing filter to help prevent glare. That does help. If you don't have a copy-stand, a tripod with a horizontal arm that would allow you to point the camera straight down is a nifty thing. Have fun.

Yes a polarizing filter is going to be very important to deal with reflections if you're shooting with setting your lights at less than 45 degrees (as in if you have two lights right next to the camera instead of out to the sides.)

[grannysdc]

my 2 cents worth to what has already been said. .

Polarizing filters (Gels) indoors with portable flash and studio strobes/floods has been around for quite awhile. It is often done with a combination of lens filter and gel filters on the light units. The general idea is to polarize the light coming from the light units and then match that polarization with a filter on the lens. The benefits are generally the same as polarizing filters used outdoors - reduced reflected light resulting in richer colors and less reflections on glassware and other shiny surfaces. "Cross polarization" can reduce this glare to provide richer color saturation. Transmission is around 38% (one and a half to two stops). This neutral Gray linear polarizing film is used in front of lights to reduce the glare caused by smooth surfaces such as glass, water, paper and certain metallic objects. Especially effective when used in conjunction with a polarizing filter at the lens (cross polarization). Be aware that these Gels should be placed at a distance from hot lights.

For the polarizing filter on your camera lens to work indoors you must first polarize your light source. This can be done by putting a polarizing film or gel over your flash unit or light source (and turning off all other ambient light sources). Covering your soft box with a polarizing sheet gives your lens-mounted filter additional reflection-blocking power because more of the light reflected from your subject is polarized. The technique works equally well with reflective objects in product shots. Use a fairly bright light with a modeling lamp so you can get an idea of what the effect will be before the film or sensor is exposed-- The filters will absorbed almost 2 stops of light, so use 300Ws or brighter to avoid having to crank the ISO to 800 or higher. Light your copy work just as bright as you would a person and shoot with the same care as you would as shooting a human subject to capture all the fine details. . a simple on-camera flash won't do (The angle will not work if you try to polarize an on-camera flash. . The closer the light is to the lens axis, the less effective a lens mounted polarizer will be at controlling sheen or glare. ) Polarize in one direction with polarizers over the flash(es). Place the flash heads at 45%. Put a polarizer on the lens, turned 90 deg from the direction the flash is polarized. You may use either a circular or linear polarizer on the camera; however, the polarizer on the flash should be linear. You might want some gobos or barn doors to avoid spill onto the camera, but you shouldn't have to worry about it that much if the light on the subject is strong. Keep in mind that you can add back as much reflection intensity as you like just by giving the on-camera filter a twist. You can also use a long lens for greater camera to subject distance. The longer the lens and greater the camera to subject distance, the less perspective distortion and correction you'll have to deal with.

A couple sources for linear gels: http: //www.polarization.com/polarshop http: //scientificsonline.com/produc...polarizer+film

Reflections in glass are very simple to deal with without polarization. . Position a large black card, a large piece of black velvetine or velvet, a black piece of foamcore or art board. . . cut a hole in whatever material you use for the lens to poke through, . . . . cover the camera, tripod legs and yourself with something black and turn off any ambient light to keep the environment from being illuminated. light the subject at the proper angles for a good exposure. . The main point is to have a surface facing the glass that has no reflective properties.