Do you think I'm crazy?

[ThePhotographer]

I want to use a 50mm for my next beauty shoot rather than the 85mm because I can get much closer with it and won't have to crop which I hate. I know some people will say 'The nose gets bigger bla bla bla' but I think the difference between 50mm and 85mm (both on full frame) isn't that big. Why do I want to use my 50mm other than being able to get closer? It's weather sealed and has a better aperture.

[RobertAsh]

You'll distort people's features if you get too close with a normal lens. It won't be flattering. Especially if their body is at an angle to your shooting plane. That's ok now and then for special effects but it's not flattering and it won't sell your work or encourage people to come to you for flattering pictures of themselves.

It's best to stick with 85-135mm lenses for head shots even for crop-sensor format. 50mm are good for full-body shots or for couples or small groups.

[ThePhotographer]

Originally Posted by RobertAsh

You'll distort people's features if you get too close with a normal lens. It won't be flattering. Especially if their body is at an angle to your shooting plane. That's ok now and then for special effects but it's not flattering and it won't sell your work or encourage people to come to you for flattering pictures of themselves.

It's best to stick with 85-135mm lenses for head shots even for crop-sensor format. 50mm are good for full-body shots or for couples or small groups.

Thing is my only other lens is an 85mm 1.8D Nikkor, problem is that it's not weather sealed and we are planning on rain. I never carry umbrellas, I hate it, used to be a Pentax shooter so weather never was an issue before.

[RobertAsh]

ThePhotographer,

I really like your style. A woman's heart is indeed the only thing in this world worth stealing

If you have a high-end Nikon you have the same weather-sealing as a Pentax (I've owned both and love both). My Nikon D200 and D300 can take the weather, my Nikon D7000 can't quite as much. But it takes unreal quality images.

Just buckle down and do what it takes. Pursing excellence requires doing things we hate sometimes like taking umbrellas. If you have a plastic shower cap that is an old-time trick used by a lot of National Geographic and other outdoor photographers.

Do what it takes to get the shot, my friend. You'll never regret the winning image, but you'll always regret taking shortcuts that cost you quality and prevent you from delivering the best possible image to your customer.

EDIT: Believe me, I speak from experience. I cut some corners early on as a photographer that I really should not have. It cost me and even today I regret it. I don't cut corners now, I bite the bullet, suck it up, and do what it takes.

[Doug Nelson]

The 50mm advice only applies to 35mm film cameras and full-frame digital cameras. Most DSLR cameras have a focal length multiplier.

[ThePhotographer]

I have a D700 which has OK weather sealing (Pentax is still market leader when it comes to weather sealing.) but then if I put a Pinapple, sorry I mean an 85mm 1.8D on it then the lens mount becomes the weak spot because this lens has no rubber ring like the 50mm 1.4

I also have, I admit it, an Aperture complex. LOL

[RobertAsh]

Originally Posted by Doug Nelson

The 50mm advice only applies to 35mm film cameras and full-frame digital cameras. Most DSLR cameras have a focal length multiplier.

That doesn't change the perspective problem. I took a portrait once with a 70mm on a DX sensor - 1.5x multiplier. I got close thinking it would work like a 135mm. It didn't. The subject was at an angle and his elbow looks too big.

Never did that again.

The physics reason is that the crop-sensor camera is taking the middle portion of the 50mm, but the 50mm is still a 50mm. One reason for that is that the sensor sizes are close enough that they behave the same optically.

[ThePhotographer]

Originally Posted by Doug Nelson

The 50mm advice only applies to 35mm film cameras and full-frame digital cameras. Most DSLR cameras have a focal length multiplier.

Yeah, I'm shooting Full Frame on a Nikon D700.

[RobertAsh]

Originally Posted by ThePhotographer

I have a D700 which has OK weather sealing (Pentax is still market leader when it comes to weather sealing.) but then if I put a Pinapple, sorry I mean an 85mm 1.8D on it then the lens mount becomes the weak spot because this lens has no rubber ring like the 50mm 1.4

I also have, I admit it, an Aperture complex. LOL

I understand

But please trust me, my friend -- use the right lens first. Don't shortcut.

If you have time, then use the 50mm afterward and compare the results. You'll have the right lens shot, plus the wrong lens shot and you can see the difference.

Nail the right shot first, then take chances and do experiments

[ThePhotographer]

Maybe I am just influenced by my own recent experience, I shot beauty with a model not so long ago and noticed that my 50mm shot made the model actually look much prettier than in real life while my 85mm made her look more 'normal'.

50mm:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5024/...e9841114_b.jpg

85mm:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/...500c14a6_z.jpg


Maybe it was an accident?


One of my favourite photographers also uses 50mm for beauty, I have never seen the results though: http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/p...ng-beauty.html

[RobertAsh]

Well, if you haven't seen the results, that tells you something

I actually think your 85mm shot looks much better. It has a lot more to do with the composition, posing and processing than with the focal length.

[ThePhotographer]

Originally Posted by RobertAsh

Well, if you haven't seen the results, that tells you something

I actually think your 85mm shot looks much better. It has a lot more to do with the composition, posing and processing than with the focal length.

Well, Kanarek is a well known Fashion Photographer, if he uses a Pentax 50mm for beauty there has to be a good reason or an advantage. Or maybe he just wants to be different, theories good sir?

[RobertAsh]

Also, with regards to Karanek, he may be successful and well known, but he's pretty off-base in saying 85mm is 80s and 90s. The angles and perspectives that show people best have never changed over time.

Take a look at --> www.slickforce.com

You'll notice that all the amazing models there are shot with their faces at the same angle. That's the same angle used in Venus de Milo back in ancient Greek days. Why? because it's beautiful. The human face has not changed that much. Learn good posing and learn the right angles of the face to photograph and you'll be much more successful than you will get following the advice of people who say beautiful, quality pictures are "so 80s and 90s".

[ThePhotographer]

I wish I could afford a 200mm or a 300mm... Ah!

[RobertAsh]

First things first - use what you have to its fullest advantage. Then you'll have the tools to use other equipment when you can afford it. With a D700 and multiple Nikkors you have an "ultimate" camera/lens combination(s). Don't covet something else, that's very easy to do and we all fall prey to that.

But always, always remember --> It's not the equipment, it's the eye. If you're a good photographer you can literally use a good point and shoot to outdo someone with a top DSLR who's not as good at seeing.

[ThePhotographer]

85mm it is then! Even though I'll have to crop!

[RobertAsh]

Originally Posted by ThePhotographer

85mm it is then! Even though I'll have to crop!

That's the spirit!

Believe me, your willingness to sacrifice your personal shooting preferences like focal length in pursuit of excellence will pay off for you -- big time -- in the long run.

Here's a no-cost resource that will help you stand out among the competition if you learn its principles, practice them, and apply them diligently:

The Joe Zeltsman Approach to Classical Portraiture

These are the principles behind those stunning model portfolio shots on www.slickforce.com

Don't be misled by the stiff, stuffy-looking poses in the article. It's the principles being taught that matter. Learn those well and you'll be able to make any model look like an angel. And unlike most photographers you won't have to rely on the models being experienced, you'll be able to take anybody off the street and make them look like a movie star.

Check out my Portraits portfolio.

None of the people in there were professional models, they were customers - neighbors, friends and friends of friends, work colleagues, etc. Just ordinary people.

When you get even more advanced with knowing those poses you'll be able to capture them "in flight" -- anticipate the pose then snap the shutter at the right time to grab it. There are some good examples in my:

• Events galleries (Including well-known music and film festivals)
• Weddings galleries

If you learn the Joe Zeltsman poses you'll see that almost every photo I have in my galleries illustrates one or more of those classic poses, just applied to today's subjects.

The photographic skills needed to capture musicians in mid-performance are the same skills needed to capture models in action. The same skills needed to direct people into poses to create beautiful, classic portraits that look relaxed, confident and natural are the same skills needed to direct models into the most flattering positions for their faces and clothing.

Learning the poses and directing people into them -- without looking stiff, forced and posed -- will probably be the most difficult and at times frustrating skill you learn as a photographer. It takes time and practice, and there's no silver bullet or easy shortcuts. It's much harder than learning lighting, which is why fewer and fewer photographers today know how to do it well.

And -- worst of all for most photographers -- if you walk this road you have to take all the blame yourself for any bad picture. You can never blame the model, it's always the photographer's fault if the image is not flattering. But it's well, well worth learning, sweating over and practicing.

[Tareq]

When i shoot with my Canon DSLR [Full Frame] then the most lens i use for portraits is 24-70 at 60-70mm, i have 70-200 but i don't use it much for that, and i have 85mm 1.8 but it is tight most of the time, but i am happy to use 50mm as well, but i found that in the studio when the space is tight then i can use something in 40-70 FL range, if i am in open space then i can go with 70-200.
When i use my medium format camera, then the only lens i use for portraits is 80mm [which is equivalent to about 45mm in 35mm format], it is amazing lens, but i heard a lot recommending me to go with 100mm, i hope i can afford it sooner or later, but i have also Macro 120mm, it is also unbelievable lens, but it is so heavy and slow focus and tight long FL for portraits.

[RobertAsh]

You're doing well.

Your 80mm medium format is actually nearly perfect. It has a field of view of a 45mm for a 35mm camera, but the perspective will be closer to that of an 80mm on a 35mm. Depending on the distance to the subject if it's close-focusing. The difference between an 80mm and 100mm is minimal, I really would not worry about that at all. Just step back a little farther if you can, then crop. Turns out the distance from the lens to the subject determines perspective no matter what the lens' focal length. Neat fact to keep in mind

Regarding your Canon, you're doing the right thing. In tight quarters you don't have much choice except to use the 24-70 because your 70-200mm will not focus in that close (if it operates like the Nikon, and I imagine it does). That's actually why a good number of portrait photographers who are full-time have studios that have long distances between them and their subjects - they want to use 70-200mm for 35mm cameras, or use 120-180mm for medium format cameras, and the minimum focusing distances are too far away to use in a small room.

In my 85mm recommendation to ThePhotographer I was assuming he is shooting outside or in a large studio because that's the only way he'd have to crop an 85mm shot (it implies he's far enough from the subject to have to crop an image captured with a medium telephoto).

In the end, it's just like the old saying "the best camera is the one you have with you." The best lens is the one that will do the job in your circumstances.

[RobertAsh]

Hi, Everybody,

I'm sorry but my url above no longer goes to the Joe Zeltsman book. That book is getting very hard to find online. And I've not found it in print.

Here is the url I originally got the book from:

http://blog.kitfphoto.com/Zeltsman/chapter-01.html

Again, please don't focus on the old, stiff-looking photos (though a good number do look alive ). Focus on the principles being taught by the text. It will improve your people photography noticeably if you practice the principles regarding angles of peoples' faces.

[bubbah]

I can't believe that in all these posts that no one suggested the obvious answer.
If you do not own the right lens for a short term shoot, just rent the lenses you need.
No long term capital outlay and you get to use the lens you think is best for your shoot.
"results will vary" :^)

[CathyH]

To RoberAsh, thank you for all the information regarding portrait lens' and the link to Joe Zeltsman's book, it is very helpful.

[harryduns]

Originally Posted by ThePhotographer

Thing is my only other lens is an 85mm 1.8D Nikkor, problem is that it's not weather sealed and we are planning on rain. I never carry umbrellas, I hate it, used to be a Pentax shooter so weather never was an issue before.

If I knew I was going to be shooting outside and expected rain, I think I'd get someone to hold an umbrella over me no matter what lens I was using! Why risk expensive gear getting wet and also compromise your lens choice when there is a simple solution?

Originally Posted by RobertAsh

That's the same angle used in Venus de Milo back in ancient Greek days.

Venus De Milo is a sculpture that you can walk round and view from any angle Perhaps you mean the Mona Lisa?

[RobertAsh]

Originally Posted by harryduns

Venus De Milo is a sculpture that you can walk round and view from any angle Perhaps you mean the Mona Lisa?

No, I mean Venus de Milo. In traditional classic posing and lighting the subject is in roughly a Venus de Milo pose and the camera "walks" around them. For some more detail on this please see the Zeltsmann article I shared above.

[RobertAsh]

Originally Posted by CathyH

To RobertAsh, thank you for all the information regarding portrait lens' and the link to Joe Zeltsman's book, it is very helpful.

Thanks, Cathy Very, very glad it was of help.

[harryduns]

Originally Posted by RobertAsh

No, I mean Venus de Milo. In traditional classic posing and lighting the subject is in roughly a Venus de Milo pose and the camera "walks" around them. For some more detail on this please see the Zeltsmann article I shared above.

Ah, sorry, I thought you meant the specific angle of the head in relation to the lens - a lot of the Slickforce shots seem to have the model's head turned at a uniform angle, kind of 3/4 on to the camera, which was what led me to the Mona Lisa reference.

[RobertAsh]

Hi Harry, you're exactly right. If you go to Wikipedia.com and look up Venus de Milo, then look up Mona Lisa you'll see both artworks have their subjects in almost the same pose. In the Wikipedia photo, if you walk around Venus de Milo counter-clockwise you'll get to the same pose as the Mona Lisa is sitting in. Pretty neat, no?

It's called a 2/3 view of the face from the position from which the Mona Lisa is painted, and is typically the most attractive angle from which to view a subject if it's handled correctly. www.Slickforce.com has this angle down pat. They're great at it.

Venus de Milo pre-dates the Mona Lisa. All the classic Renaissance artists - da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael, etc. used these same poses and angles to do their classic paintings as the Venus de Milo carver used to carve that statue.

So in that sense, you're right and I did mean the Mona Lisa -- too

Good classic portraiture (or good contemporary portraiture like Slickforce.com's) is based on those same principles and angles that worked so well a couple thousand years ago and longer. And that still work very, very well today.