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The Photoshop CS Rip-off

 
 
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  #31  
Old 09-12-2005, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampy
>You are kind of contradicting yourself, unless i misunderstand you. You want to put bleeds and slugs on the photo, prior to putting it in the layout?

Most of the time *I* am not the one who plunks the finished work into Quark or InDesign. I must complete the work in Photoshop with the bleeds in place and provide the file as a CMYK TIFF for a magazine or newspaper's prepress folks to plunk into *their* DTP program.

The sample below shows a project that I had yesterday requiring two different specs. One 7.25 x 5 with no bleed and the second requiring 7.25 x 5.125 for a 1/8th inch bleed at the top only. The red area indicates the bleed area that had to be added. And I've shown, on the left, parts of the sky that I added to fill this new bleed area. I generally use red or lime green (on a lower layer) to indicate the bleed area. It just makes it easier to see any gaps when filling in (sky in this case).

Also note that there was a lot of compositing necessary in this piece (Illustrator files, additional photos etc.) and the text had to be in place when I sent the file on to the newspaper and magazine that were running the article.

So yes, PhotoShop is a DTP tool in the sense that I have to put it all together and send a flat file to the publisher.

LETS ALL JUST START RUMBLING AND KILL EACH OTHER



Im teasing of course.

In your example, yes it is an image heavy piece, but everything you did in that could be done in indesign, much more easily, everything from text effects, to image bezels, drop shadows, etc etc. Not to dumbdown your work, but there are maybe 8-12 layers in that image, if you had something with 40-50 layers, you would certainly be losing your mind in ps.

A good example of the reason to not use PS for that is your bleed area in the red. That will print, its part of the image, whereas in Indesign, the bleeds are non printable areas.

And as far as file compatibility with printers/publishers, pdf's are becoming the main stay as the file of choice recommended by most everyone i work with. Its compatible cross platform, it maintains image quality, it is far more versatile than a tiff, and it allows you to include all ink info, bleed info, color separations, etc.

I'm not sure if you have ever dealt with anything like color separations but it is next to impossible to do in PS.

I have yet to come across any printer/publisher that asks for a psd for a final piece to send to the printer. It just seems archaic to me to have to do it that way is all.

cheers
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  #32  
Old 09-13-2005, 06:50 AM
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byRo byRo is offline
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I must admit that before this thread started I didn't know anything about either Quark or InDesign.
So I looked 'em up (OK, read Googled) and, much to my suprise I discovered that the full name is actually Adobe® InDesign® CS2.

So, Swampy, there's your answer.
Abobe ain't never gonna put too many publishing tools in PS, because they have another program just for that!

....and folks, please, let's not try to see who's right and who's wrong, let's accept and respect our differences, and learn from each other. That's what forums are for.

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  #33  
Old 09-13-2005, 08:14 AM
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Loverly Loverly is offline
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[QUOTE=byRo]I must admit that before this thread started I didn't know anything about either Quark or InDesign.
So I looked 'em up (OK, read Googled) and, much to my suprise I discovered that the full name is actually Adobe® InDesign® CS2.

I am also enjoying reading about the other progs since I am putting illustrations together for a kids book and don't know a thing about Indesign or Quark. So keep up the discussion!
Loverly
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  #34  
Old 09-13-2005, 12:49 PM
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Swampy Swampy is offline
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Photo

>>>In your example, yes it is an image heavy piece, but everything you did in that could be done in indesign...

True. But what good does that do me when the end user doesn't use InDesign and they have asked for a 300 DPI CMYK Tiff file?

>>>A good example of the reason to not use PS for that is your bleed area in the red. That will print, its part of the image, whereas in Indesign, the bleeds are non printable areas.

The red layer, used to define the bleed gets deleted prior to final output. The red that you see in my sample, was just to show the rest of the area that needed to be cloned into in order to extend the sky to fit the called for top bleed. Of course the resulting clones will call for a new crop of the overall design.

>>>And as far as file compatibility with printers/publishers, pdf's are becoming the main stay as the file of choice recommended by most everyone i work with. Its compatible cross platform, it maintains image quality, it is far more versatile than a tiff, and it allows you to include all ink info, bleed info, color separations, etc.

For this particular project the end user did not want a PDF file. Their version of Quark doesn't play well with PDF, so they asked for TIFF. Additionally, I've had some issues with color shifts when generating PDFs from both InDesign and Photoshop. I've been in touch with Adobe Tech Support (as well as asking for help in the Adobe forums) on this. They acknowledged that there is a problem with some older RIPs and they are working on a solution.

>>>I'm not sure if you have ever dealt with anything like color separations but it is next to impossible to do in PS.

I deal with color seps every day. I've never had a problem generating 4 color seps out of PhotoShop to my HP Postscript printer for proofing or to our Xante platemaker for final output. And for 4 color jobs requiring spot (PMS) colors, I know they are going to shift so I always set them up using a spot to process PMS color chart.

>>>I have yet to come across any printer/publisher that asks for a psd for a final piece to send to the printer. It just seems archaic to me to have to do it that way is all.

Very rarely do I ever send a raw PSD file to an end user. First of all there is the issue of fonts (and no easy way in PS to collect them for output). Besides, converting to TIFF rasterizes them so it's no longer an issue. The other reason is, I don't want anyone to have access to the photos and other raw resources that may have copyright issues. Of course I always save a PSD version for my use, but the last thing I do is convert to CMYK, flatten the file and save as a TIFF and forward that file to the end user.

byRO

>>>So, Swampy, there's your answer.
Abobe ain't never gonna put too many publishing tools in PS, because they have another program just for that!

Yepper, and I have it and use it when *I* am the publisher. But I am not always the publisher so in that case I have to use whatever tool(s) are necessary to get graphics into the format that the project's end user needs. Example.. I'm working on a large 4 fold color brochure that contains photos, EPS (vector) maps, color scans (architectural rendering and seating chart) and body text. Of course the brochure will be done in InDesign, but many of the the same graphics are going to be used on the Web, for a PowerPoint presentation and in a video presentation. Down the road there will be billboards, newspaper and magazine ads, playbill and souviner program. PhotoShop is at the heart of generating the digital materials for all these needs. The Web master needs JPEG and GIF files, The videographer needs TARGA. Resolutions and file formats abound! PhotoShop is the key.

Loverly....

I read about your children's book project and I think that is WONDERFUL! Are you going to produce the illustrations by hand or do them on the computer in something like Illustrator or "paint" them in something like PhotoShop? I'm NOT an artist! Can't draw a straight line if you handed me a ruler and graph paper, but the computer lets me do stuff I never imagined. I've attached a pic of a calico cat that I was asked to do for a poster for a children's play. I did it in Macromedia FreeHand (a vector drawing program similar to Illustrator). It doesn't translate at this size as a JPEG because of the detail, but I think you'll get an idea of what a vector drawing program will do. :-)

To all... I never intended to start a bruhaha and I hope no one takes my comments personally. By all means, use the tool that suits your needs the best. I use them all and I enjoy each one for what it can do.
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  #35  
Old 09-13-2005, 01:51 PM
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Photo678 Photo678 is offline
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>>>True. But what good does that do me when the end user doesn't use InDesign and they have asked for a 300 DPI CMYK Tiff file?

Export as .tiff from Indesign.


>>>The red layer, used to define the bleed gets deleted prior to final output. The red that you see in my sample, was just to show the rest of the area that needed to be cloned into in order to extend the sky to fit the called for top bleed. Of course the resulting clones will call for a new crop of the overall design.

Extra step that would bother me as a waste of my time


>>>>For this particular project the end user did not want a PDF file. Their version of Quark doesn't play well with PDF, so they asked for TIFF. Additionally, I've had some issues with color shifts when generating PDFs from both InDesign and Photoshop. I've been in touch with Adobe Tech Support (as well as asking for help in the Adobe forums) on this. They acknowledged that there is a problem with some older RIPs and they are working on a solution.

So if the printer needs to make some on the fly changes what happens?
PRinter calls provider, provider calls you, you need to make changes..that is a day lost at the printer.



>>>>>I deal with color seps every day. I've never had a problem generating 4 color seps out of PhotoShop to my HP Postscript printer for proofing or to our Xante platemaker for final output. And for 4 color jobs requiring spot (PMS) colors, I know they are going to shift so I always set them up using a spot to process PMS color chart.

Automatically done for you in indesign when you save as a job


>>>Very rarely do I ever send a raw PSD file to an end user. First of all there is the issue of fonts (and no easy way in PS to collect them for output). Besides, converting to TIFF rasterizes them so it's no longer an issue. The other reason is, I don't want anyone to have access to the photos and other raw resources that may have copyright issues. Of course I always save a PSD version for my use, but the last thing I do is convert to CMYK, flatten the file and save as a TIFF and forward that file to the end user.

Again, if text needs to be shifted by the printer, or whatever, impossible for them to do. I never send any final files to the end user, unless requested, and I tell them what i would be supplying, not vice versa. Also by not supplying fonts to the printer, it makes it that much more difficult to print it and make a font plate.





>>>>To all... I never intended to start a bruhaha and I hope no one takes my comments personally. By all means, use the tool that suits your needs the best. I use them all and I enjoy each one for what it can do.

Oh no no...healthy discussion and debate is all, no worries, i just thought I would throw a little comedy up in there.

Two very big things that I like about indesign, which Im not sure that I have mentioned is that it is very tightly integrated with photoshop. In your example that you show, you could right click (ctrl click) on any image that may need color adjustment, or whatever and select "edit original" opens up photoshop, make the changes you need, save, and it auto updates in indesign. As opposed to having to find the file, open it, make changes etc.

Two is that you can have an image box..like lets say in your example, one of those images in that top right boxy thing needs to be swapped, in indesign everything can be linked or embedded in the doc. click on the image, select change link,. and it sizes for you, adds the effect you had etc.

In ps, you have to find the layer you want delete whats there open new file, resize, drop into your psd, apply the effects again, make sure its all lined up etc.

My point is that, no i don't think they would add dtp options such as bleeds for something that is rarely used as the final tool in design and layout.
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  #36  
Old 09-13-2005, 04:04 PM
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Swampy Swampy is offline
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Photo..

>>>Export as .tiff from Indesign.

InDesign doesn't export as TIFF. There are only EPS, InDesign INX, JPEG, SVG, SVG Compressed and XML options for export. Besides, why, if I compose it all in PS and can save it as a TIFF from there, would I ever want to put it in InD and export it as a TIFF (even if I could). I certainly wouldn't want to export it from InD as a JPEG and lose resolution.

>>>So if the printer needs to make some on the fly changes what happens?
PRinter calls provider, provider calls you, you need to make changes..that is a day lost at the printer.

My clients don't have the capability to do the work so they call me. I always obtain from them all the contact information that I need about the printer/publisher and I deal directly with them. I do the job, send a low res proof to my client for their approval and once they sign off, I generate the file that the printer needs. If changes need to be made, the printer/publisher contacts me directly, I make the necessary changes go through another proof with my client then send a corrected version to the publisher. No big deal, but I don't want to get caught in a situation where my client approves something and it gets changed without their knowledge or approval. It's kind of hard to get paid for a job when it's not what the customer approved. Besides, it helps me in my learning process. If a printer/publisher needs changes because of "gripper bars" or "creep" I want to understand it and learn to do it for future reference.

>>>And for 4 color jobs requiring spot (PMS) colors, I know they are going to shift so I always set them up using a spot to process PMS color chart.

>>>Automatically done for you in indesign when you save as a job

True, but you've got to know WHICH PMS color to shoot for. Our local community college uses PMS 166 (a burnt orange) in their logo. This PMS color just does NOT translate when output in CMYK in a 4 color job. (No problem if they were willing to pay for the 5th-spot color run). When setting up output for them I use PMS 1585, because it prints more brown than red. The Pantone Spot to Process color guide is my bible when dealing with customer logo colors in process work. Many times I'll sit with a client with the S-to-P chart in hand and show them how their PMS logo color is going to print in CMYK. I always get, "But my printer can print it correctly on my business cards and letterhead." When I explain that their printer has a can of ink in that exact color, but that the color needs to be "recreated" using only CMYK inks, it's just not going to print the same they'll understand. I show them the Spot to Process Pantone chart and help them pick the closest match. It's a matter of education.

Yes, InDesign is about the best DTP application on the market. I've used them all (going back to 1985). We use InD at our print shop and for everything that we generate for in-house printing and for outsourcing to the color shops we use. Preflighting and collection for output is a breeze. But... there are times that clients will call and need a one-shot graphic or ad that will be printed in a newspaper or magazine. That's the kind of stuff that I prefer to do in Photoshop, expecially when it may be going to several publishers with different file format requirements.

I have one job that rolls around every year that deals in fine art. An oil or watercolor painting is selected as the "winner" and the following year the artwork is printed on Posters, T-shirts, brochures, a 28 page full color book, the web, newspapers, trade magazines and tons of other things. Photoshop is the ONLY tool that let me get it in all the various formats that are needed. It is one of the few files that I must send out as raw PSD only because the T Shirt imprinter needs a Raw (an transparent) PSD file to import into his specialized application to do the color seps for the silk screens.
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  #37  
Old 09-14-2005, 07:56 AM
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampy
Loverly....

I read about your children's book project and I think that is WONDERFUL! Are you going to produce the illustrations by hand or do them on the computer in something like Illustrator or "paint" them in something like PhotoShop? I'm NOT an artist! Can't draw a straight line if you handed me a ruler and graph paper, but the computer lets me do stuff I never imagined. I've attached a pic of a calico cat that I was asked to do for a poster for a children's play. I did it in Macromedia FreeHand (a vector drawing program similar to Illustrator). It doesn't translate at this size as a JPEG because of the detail, but I think you'll get an idea of what a vector drawing program will do. :-)
Swampy,
I'm also excited about this book! Just yesterday I read it over the phone to my mother-in-law who was an elementary reading specialist for probably 20 years and I got a rave review from her so that motivates me to keep going on it. My plans so far on the book are to combine photos and drawings. I have completed all the photos this summer that I need and now I am to the drawing part. I have to purchase a Wacom Tablet yet and am looking at buying the Intuos3 9x12 (or whatever the largest size is). I have Corel Painter,Photshop CS and Macromedia Freehand. I don't have Indesign yet. I have some artistic ability so I figured why pay someone $6,000 plus dollars or whatever it is to do the illustrations! I've been reading the posts here throughly and grabbing at every crumb that I can to help me figure all this out since this printing stuff is all new to me. Sounds like there are several tools that I will need to complete the project! It may take me a hundred years to get it all together and I sure may need some help along the way!

Loverly
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  #38  
Old 09-14-2005, 09:24 AM
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Swampy Swampy is offline
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Loverly!

I use FreeHand and actually prefer it over Adobe Illustrator. You won't have the "drag and drop" capability directly to InDesign when you get down to actually putting the book together, but FH has a much lower learning curve and you should catch on pretty quickly. Its pen tool is excellent (especially if you go into preferences and turn OFF "join non touching paths"). Complete your file in FreeHand (saving as a freehand file, then select the elements and EXPORT as EPS using the "Export selected objects" option. (otherwise it will export the entire page document with white space borders and all). You can then drag and drop or "place" the file in Indesign and it will have a transparent background.

I have a small Wacom because I just don't have deskspace for a larger one, but it does the job just fine for me.

Sounds like the only other thing you need is InDesign to put the book together in. InDesign is pretty steep if you want it to be, but the basics are fairly simple. Do the Lynda.com $25 per month tutorials on InD and Freehand. On that deal, the all the tutorials there are available 24/7 for a whole month. You can get a pretty good handle on the basics of both programs on some long weekends.

Holler anytime if you need help.
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  #39  
Old 09-15-2005, 08:02 AM
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Loverly Loverly is offline
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Swampy,
Thanks soooooooo much for the great information! That helps a lot and gives me a lil push in the right way! Nothing like feeling a bit overwhelmed and then seeing a light at the end of the tunnel!

As far as the Wacom Tablet I guess I probably could do with the smaller one. I just wasn't sure about the space on the pad. I thought maybe it was easier to deal with it if it was larger so that I could make long strokes without having to stop and lift the pen.

Believe me if I get stuck I'll holler!

Hugs,

Loverly
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  #40  
Old 09-15-2005, 08:11 AM
tom langford tom langford is offline
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Loverly,

Just to let you know that I use the Wacom Graphire stylus and tablet for my professional retouching work. Although the area is only 4 by 5 inches I have never found this a problem. I use it so much that I'm just about to wear out my second tablet.

Tom.
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