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RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Rodney

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  #31  
Old 06-27-2010, 09:02 AM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Ro

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Originally Posted by ChasP505 View Post
Hi Andrew...

On page 22 of the presentation notes PDF, it says"Use No Color Management setting if you previously used Convert to Profile". Can you explain this to me? Here's my situation: I use an older 9-ink HP printer the 8750. HP's tech and PR literature from back in 2005 talked about this printer and inks matching closely to sRGB. I've found that I get major color shifts, mostly in vibrant greens, when I send an Adobe RGB file to the printer, so I've been converting from Adobe RGB to sRGB for printing certain photos. Should I be selecting "No Color Management" instead of "Photoshop Manages Colors"? (I use Photoshop CS4 on a Windows PC)
Prior to CS5, you could use Convert to Profile to do the color space transforms so the file was ready to print. You would then select No Color Management in Photoshop’s Print dialog because the document was already color managed. The numbers were correct for that printer. Just send them to the printer (and of course, pick No Color Management or similar language in the print driver itself). We can’t do that any longer in CS5. The No Color Management option is gone. So you now only use Convert to Profile to prep a document to send off to someone else, not for this kind of local printing. Instead you pick Let Photoshop Manage Color in the Print dialog. It will do the equivalent of Convert to Profile while leaving your original document untouched.

In the case of the 8750, you might be able to send it sRGB with no further color management use in Photoshop or the print driver. At least that was the idea for sRGB and lower end, consumer like devices where users would never have access to Photoshop, profiles etc. So sending it Adobe RGB would never be a good idea. IF you had an Adobe RGB document however, and you had a good profile for this printer, and it allowed you to use it properly, no problem starting out with Adobe RGB (1998) or for that matter, ProPhoto or any other RGB working space. That working space data will be transformed into the correct RGB color space for that specific printer using a paper profile (ICC profile).

The only time you’d ever think of using No Color Management in Photoshop is if you had the document in the color space for the printer.
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  #32  
Old 06-27-2010, 02:05 PM
Matt Timmons Matt Timmons is offline
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Re: RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Ro

Appreciate the education, Andrew. Nice to fill in some knowledge gaps and well worth the 10 bucks. I have some of my favorite points and also a question.

* I liked the part about monitors with high contrast ratios/brightness not being the best idea for photographer/retouchers. I always thought, "I guess the bigger the ratio the better".

* I use a Colormunki for calibrating and it's nice to finally know what D65 is and the numbers/settings that it asks me to choose from and use as the baseline for calibration. Before your show, I was just selecting "easy mode" and letting it do it's thing.

* When it comes to all the extra bit depth, larger color gamut and therefore RAM taxation and hard drive real estate, I have always thought, "If you can't see the difference, why pay the difference." No one knows you've had a sex change unless you pull your pants down. BUT, I realized during your show that it is better to work with the best quality because you can always dumb it down, but you can't get it back if it was deleted at input. Plus it's just better to have a consistent workflow and never have to do a different workflow pattern for different output quality. It's all done at best quality and output is as needed.

* Just a note for next time, but some stuff was a little easier to follow for the Star Trek fans rather than creatives like me. I'm more about what I get through the viewfinder, and the rest is just details. But IT IS important to know what and how we are doing in post, I just got a little lost in the woods on some parts and my head began to hurt. I hope that helps just for feedback purposes (on the NAPP forums you're always my "go to guy" for recommendations on anything technical, so you know you are loved for it)!

Question: For web output, I always use Convert to Profile and choose the profile my Colormunki creates for my monitor before I save and upload. I always get a perfect color match on the web that way. However, I don't do this before printing on my printer, uploading to Mpix or before CMYK conversion for magazines. Should I Convert to Profile on ALL files before saving for output regardless of where it's going? I though Convert to Profile was just for web output.

Thanks again for a good presentation, and I didn't mind the slides one bit. Also thanks Doug for good momentum with the questions and topic clarity throughout the interview.
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  #33  
Old 06-27-2010, 02:11 PM
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Re: RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Ro

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Originally Posted by Matt Timmons View Post
Question: For web output, I always use Convert to Profile and choose the profile my Colormunki creates for my monitor before I save and upload. I always get a perfect color match on the web that way.
Sure, it matches for you. Because you are viewing that image on your machine, with your display profile tagging the data, its a match outside ICC aware app’s. But everyone else will see this differently and in some cases, incorrectly. You’d be better off using sRGB only because you are aiming for the lowest common denominator instead of a highly device dependent description (your specific display).

Remember, the display profile is solely based on your display, its behavior, how data runs through your machine’s graphic card and graphic system. With sRGB, its a common target in terms of what that profile describes.

And if you save as sRGB, in a color managed web browser, there will be a match as well.
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  #34  
Old 06-27-2010, 02:27 PM
Matt Timmons Matt Timmons is offline
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Re: RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Ro

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Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Sure, it matches for you. Because you are viewing that image on your machine, with your display profile tagging the data, its a match outside ICC aware app’s. But everyone else will see this differently and in some cases, incorrectly. You’d be better off using sRGB only because you are aiming for the lowest common denominator instead of a highly device dependent description (your specific display).

Remember, the display profile is solely based on your display, its behavior, how data runs through your machine’s graphic card and graphic system. With sRGB, its a common target in terms of what that profile describes.

And if you save as sRGB, in a color managed web browser, there will be a match as well.
Well I used to select sRGB when saved for web, upload and then view it on the web and it looked terrible. Not only on my Mac/monitor/graphics card, etc but everywhere else as well. I sought some help from an expert and he told me how to get around that so that photos looked the same everywhere. Now when I upload, I check it on different machines, different monitors and I even go out to places like Best Buy, Apple Store etc and pull my photos up on those systems and it looks just like what I see when I save it. Even in different parts of the world, they're consistent. If I'm doing something wrong so be it, but it looks correct everywhere I go and that's all I care about.
So the question still is, should I be doing that for all output intentions before saving and sending? Thanks-
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  #35  
Old 06-27-2010, 02:55 PM
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Re: RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Ro

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Originally Posted by Matt Timmons View Post
Well I used to select sRGB when saved for web, upload and then view it on the web and it looked terrible. Not only on my Mac/monitor/graphics card, etc but everywhere else as well.
On a non color managed browser, all bets are off. On a color managed browser, it would look like what you saw in Photoshop. Using the display profile is no more a guarantee that the document will look more or less awful on other users machines in non color managed app’s. It only looks good on yours.
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  #36  
Old 06-27-2010, 04:10 PM
ChasP505 ChasP505 is offline
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Re: RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Ro

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Prior to CS5, you could use Convert to Profile to do the color space transforms so the file was ready to print. You would then select No Color Management in Photoshop’s Print dialog because the document was already color managed. The numbers were correct for that printer. Just send them to the printer (and of course, pick No Color Management or similar language in the print driver itself).
So all these years of selecting "Photoshop Manages Color" in the Photoshop print dialog was wrong? Let me be clear in case I'm being misunderstood, or I'm misunderstanding. I print with a color managed system, using the canned ICC profiles installed with my printer. I know the Epson canned profiles are very good and I've found the HP profiles for my printer are decent enough too. I only convert from Adobe RGB to sRGB when softproofing in Photoshop indicates a big color swing in the bright greens and yellows.

I always thought "No Color Management" was for special situations like printing a pattern for making a custom printer profile.
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  #37  
Old 06-27-2010, 04:21 PM
Matt Timmons Matt Timmons is offline
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Re: RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Ro

Let me try my original question once more, then I'll let it go. I also have another question that might benefit a lot of people:

1. 'Is Converting to Profile' necessary prior to all forms of output?

2. Can you give us some of your recommendations on monitors for photography & retouching? Either by brand/model or just by what to look for as far as technical specs. Maybe 3 price ranges for best, good and budget-minded. Thanks.
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  #38  
Old 06-27-2010, 06:09 PM
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Re: RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Ro

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasP505 View Post
So all these years of selecting "Photoshop Manages Color" in the Photoshop print dialog was wrong?
Not at all. There were two ways to print from Photoshop. Convert to Profile (change RGB numbers for output), use No Color Management in Print. OR Let Photoshop Manage color. In CS5 we only have one option now. That is because the NO Color Management option in Print is gone. You can’t use Convert to Profile and send the data through Print or you double color manage.

Quote:
I always thought "No Color Management" was for special situations like printing a pattern for making a custom printer profile.
True. That OR if you color managed the data before you got to the Print dialog (using Convert to Profile).
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  #39  
Old 06-27-2010, 06:11 PM
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Re: RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Ro

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Timmons View Post
1. 'Is Converting to Profile' necessary prior to all forms of output?

2. Can you give us some of your recommendations on monitors for photography & retouching? Either by brand/model or just by what to look for as far as technical specs. Maybe 3 price ranges for best, good and budget-minded. Thanks.
1. Yes, ideally. You need to send the RGB values to the printer based on the printer itself (inks and paper). This is defined by an ICC paper profile. The sRGB or Adobe RGB (1998) working space are not such color spaces. They are editing spaces. Color spaces designed for image editing, agnostic of any output device.

2. NEC SpectraView with their software and one of the supported instruments.
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  #40  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:25 PM
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Doug Nelson Doug Nelson is offline
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Re: RetouchPRO LIVE "Color Management" w/Andrew Ro

This show is now available for rental.

Last edited by Doug Nelson; 04-19-2012 at 02:41 AM.
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