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Sorry; political vent.

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  #21  
Old 09-25-2008, 10:57 AM
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hawkeye60 hawkeye60 is offline
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Re: Sorry; political vent.

Sorry, good plan but I think the math is off, $85bil/200m=$425.00 each.
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  #22  
Old 09-26-2008, 12:20 AM
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Craig Walters Craig Walters is offline
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Re: Sorry; political vent.

oh come on, you all didnt see this coming? this wasnt just an accident, a mishap, a slipup... it's been lining up for years now. history does repeat itself and we're still not learning that lesson. the problem is, the 1929 stock market crash and the resulting depression, will seem like a cake walk in the light of 6 1/2 billion people.

in the boom of the early 1920's regulations were relaxed to be almost non-existant. you could buy stocks on margin with no more than 10% of the value. banking was liberalized and greed became the watchword of the decade. as more and more institutions over-extended themselves, it was only a matter of time before the dominoes started to fall.

so, here we are today, with the government pinching the working folks more and more until the home itself becomes unstable. both parents more and more have to work outside the home to make ends meet. war, which was always claimed to 'stimulate the ecomony' we are finally waking up to the untruth of that... maybe.

taxation has been unfair ever since income taxes were allowed and that goes back to the roosevelt years, i believe.

you dont any of you have any money, unless you own gold or silver. you really shld read the constitution. it defines what money is.

republicans and democrats, now there's a system designed to fail if i ever saw one. i mean, you've got the aristocrats fighting the robin hoods. sheesh, talk about medieval. or maybe a better way to put it would be to say the victimizers against the victims.

here's your current banking system: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...74362583451279 . if you can figure out how that is legal or sane, why, do let me know.

economics is really very simple, providing you dont let the government get its hands on it. i make something, you give me something in trade for it. that's ecomomics. simple. so, as i listened to mr. bush last night in his little speech on what had occurred and what they proposed to do about it, i really wasnt that surprised. as one person put it, welfare for the rich.

the current 'legal tender' we call money, is really nothing more than a representation of confidence. credit is the promise of payment or another type of confidence. so, when a betrayal like this one occurs, confidence gets shaken. the government thinks it has to shore up the mess. i'm not so sure that's the truth. i think, from what i've heard from people, real people, neighbors, friends, family, that they'd just as soon see these guys go down. they made their beds, let them sleep in it. AIG insurance? are we really losing anything worthwhile there? i think there would be a drop in confidence if there wasnt a bailout. but i also think there's an even bigger drop in confidence in that we're talking about bailing out crooks. what was that thing i heard today about one AIG bigwig who worked there three months and got a severence of 22 MILLION dollars!!?? and we're bailing these guys out?

i am glad to see that some of you are seeing that neither party is worth a damn any more. i'm definitely not voting for mccain or obama. i honestly dont know who i'm voting for, but it wont be one of them. i'm also going to re-register as independent.
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  #23  
Old 09-26-2008, 11:40 AM
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Re: Sorry; political vent.

The income tax system as we know it was not under Roosevelt, the 16th amendment was passed in 1909 and ratified in 1913 under the Wilson administration.

I agree economics is very simple. Unfortunately we have had a group of people in charge for the past eight years who believe that the economy works from the top down. Give money to the rich and they'll expand their businesses and hire employees. Repeated by G.W. Bush now for almost 8 years.

The economy simply does not work this way and never has, the economy works from the bottom up. No amount of tax breaks will cause businesses to expand if there is no one at the bottom who has the ability to actually purchase the products they produce. All this accomplishes is to make the rich even richer.

You need to put money into the hands of the people who actually spend it, that 95% of the population about which Obama speaks for his tax plan, not the 5% already flush with cash.

The fact is they already know this. When the economy went south, what did the do to try to fix it? They passed the stimulus package which did the exact opposite of everything we were told would create a good economy for the prior 7 years of this administration: they gave money back to the lower and middle class, the people who spend it.

Not voting at all or throwing away a vote is senseless IMO. Maybe it all comes down to the lesser of two evils, but there is clearly a fundamental philospohical between the candidates and the parties they represent. In the end, it's either a chance for change, or more of the same.

In this case I'm voting for change.
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  #24  
Old 09-28-2008, 08:18 PM
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Craig Walters Craig Walters is offline
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Re: Sorry; political vent.

Quote:
Not voting at all or throwing away a vote is senseless IMO. Maybe it all comes down to the lesser of two evils, but there is clearly a fundamental philospohical between the candidates and the parties they represent. In the end, it's either a chance for change, or more of the same.
in this two party system i do understand that voting for someone outside those two parties seems like throwing away one's vote, but, since there is no entry on the ballots for 'none of the above', a third party vote serves. let's remember ross pierot. and no, i wouldnt seriously want ross pierot as president, but as a protest vote, he's a very good example of not throwing your vote away on a third party.
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  #25  
Old 09-28-2008, 09:38 PM
DanBrown DanBrown is offline
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Re: Sorry; political vent.

Obama promises to lower income taxes for the middle and low income groups. But those groups don't pay taxes now. Take a look at who actually pays income taxes - the top 5% pay more than 50% of the total income tax and the top 50% pay 97% of the income tax. This has not changed for many years. Take a look at the charts:
http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

So pledging to return taxes to middle and lower income groups is plain ear candy. It sounds very good, but it is not those groups who are funding the US Government.

And remember, if you don't like McCain and vote for a third party who is guaranteed not to win, you might as well vote for Obama, because that is what you are doing in essence.

Last, when tryping to separate the truth from fiction from both candidates, one of the best sites on the web is factcheck.org - not affiliated with either party and provides DOCUMENTARY evidence of the facts.
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  #26  
Old 09-29-2008, 07:50 AM
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Steve Conway Steve Conway is offline
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Re: Sorry; political vent.

Why are we dividing each other on an otherwise placid and creative forum???

Couldn't we save this discussion for another time...another place?

I come here for relaxation not to take on the world's problems. Not to give the impression that I am not concerned with them, but please not here. I don't care to know that someone whose work I admire is 180 degrees in opposition to my views on politics, religion, or just life. You start basing their work on how you think of them politically and you lose your perspective.

For Heaven's sake let's keep some place where it doesn't matter how you feel about the word's troubles............just the world's art.

Steve C.
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  #27  
Old 09-29-2008, 08:01 AM
artiste artiste is offline
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Re: Sorry; political vent.

Interesting vent...
I have rather strong views on American Economic policy as well... but I'm Australian. Sadly, we're being directly effected by the unsound economic policies of the US and Europe. They catch a cold... we sneeze!

For those of you who may not know... Australia (particularly Western Australia) is in the middle of an economic boom... or was, till the US economy went south (yet again). As a nation, we have NO FEDERAL DEFICIT (in fact we have a surplus) we have low unemployment, socialised medicine, and a healthy balance of trade. Our taxes would bring tears to the average American's eyes, but they fund our quality of life which is second to none.

Never-the-less, my retirement fund and other assets (like our share portfolio, cash on deposit, and real estate) are being erroded as a result naked greed on the part of speculators, fiscal manipulation from the Governments and PTB's in the banking and investment sector, and the refusal of these same bodies to let the economy 'seek it's own level' and reap the consequences of their collective actions.

Another bail-out? Who in their right mind throws good money after bad... time after time?

If I were to vote in the US election, I would lean towards a more Libertarian approach. While the Libertarian Party has been stung by the political correctness bug over the last 10 or so years... they still espouse small government that keeps its nose out of economics and foreign policy. Not a bad start. You might check out http://www.econtalk.org/ if you want a different perspective in economic policy.
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  #28  
Old 09-29-2008, 09:45 AM
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albatrosss albatrosss is offline
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Re: Sorry; political vent.

The video in Kraellin's letter is worth the 45 minutes viewing time.

A real education and enlightening.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...74362583451279

Including the link so that you do not have to find Kraellins response.
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  #29  
Old 09-29-2008, 11:12 AM
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hawkeye60 hawkeye60 is offline
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Re: Sorry; political vent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBrown View Post
Obama promises to lower income taxes for the middle and low income groups. But those groups don't pay taxes now. Take a look at who actually pays income taxes - the top 5% pay more than 50% of the total income tax and the top 50% pay 97% of the income tax. This has not changed for many years. Take a look at the charts:
http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

So pledging to return taxes to middle and lower income groups is plain ear candy. It sounds very good, but it is not those groups who are funding the US Government.
You actually said that the lower and middle income in this country don't pay income taxes and that simply is not true. All my children work and pay income taxes. I pay income taxes, everyone I know pays income taxes and we are all a part of the middle class.

If middle and lower income taxes are so non-important and miniscule then eliminate them completely and they'll have that much more to spend. (Hold your breath)

Funding the government has nothing to do with it. It's the middle class in this country that fuel the economy. Without their ability to spend there is no economy. If the middle class cannot afford to buy cars, GM and Ford will not produce them. McCain and Bush would have you believe that giving Ford and GM more tax breaks will result in their hiring and expanding and building more cars, but that is just plain ear candy for the ignorant.

Until we have someone in the White House who understands this basic fact, nothing will change, and voting for someone who has no chance of winning is just the same as not voting at all.

No one is keeping a tally of the so-called protest votes. To me it's like the kid who says "I'll show them and not go the party at all", and no one notices that they didn't show up.
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  #30  
Old 09-29-2008, 04:09 PM
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lkroll lkroll is offline
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Re: Sorry; political vent.

Didn't want to make anywone upset Steve; this was my vent, but apparently I'm not the only one. That's why I picked the Salon for this discussion. Yes, it's not a retouching topic, but I see no real reason not to vent. Keeps me sane in an insane world. That helps me in the other forums to be creative. I say keep venting to those that want too. No reason to vent on 1000 threads when this one thread will do.
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