More thoughts on the recent events

[thomasgeorge]

Until such time as the Palestinian people renounce terrorism, they will continue to die. When the aim of the PLO and its supporters is "a Jew free Palestine", I dont hold much hope for any type of peace. The holocaust is not just an abstract historical occurance, it is a way of thought, a plan of action; and Israel realizes that. When the Palestinian people finally get rid of those "Clerics" and others who preach not Islam but hate and cease to listen to them, healing and improvement in their lives will occur--but not before. As long as they or any group practice terror, they will reap for all their people what they so casually sow. Tom

[Markzebra]

I have to try to inject a note of sanity into this thread!

Thomasgeorge - im afraid what you are implying is total madness, and means that the US will end up sinking to the same insane level as these "terrorists". Not only that but it will without doubt lead to an escalation that will have HUGE repercussions.

A distinction has to be made between murderers and what are simply an opressed and foolish minority.

Innocent people wherever they are simply don't deserve to die. Even people with the opinion that the United States is an Evil Empire don't deserve to die -even if their opinions are misguided. People with these opinions ARE IN THE MINORITY in their countries too remember. I'm afraid that is the whole basis of what democracy is about- and that is what we really should be fighting for.

Horrifying as it is there are plenty more young arabs (STILL IN THE MINORITY) all willing to die for their hatred. What we dont want is to give them any more reasons. As far as they are concerned history already gives them reasons enough.

The only just and respectable way to respond to this horror is to root out the actual perpetrators and dispose of them. To include a whole culture in that is fundamentally racist and without any justification. As I said at the begining its important to make sure that in fighting something you don't sink to the same level as your enemy. Just my thoughts

[thomasgeorge]

Exactly what madness do you refer to? I stated that it is my fond wish that no more destruction or death result from this but that if a war is to be fought and the fanatics stopped there are tough decisions to be made and the results will not be pretty. You sound as though you belong to the appeasment school which feels that simply by saying nice things and talking reason to these types it will somehow convince them to behave. That was tried by Chamberlain a few decades ago and the results speak for themselves. It was the policy of the British government in WW 2 to cripple the Nazi state by destroying the infrastructure and associated civilian support apparatus, witness Harris of bomber command RAF--and it worked. I am not sure what your point is, I suppose something along the lines of lets all just get along. That would be nice but you obviously have never confronted the realities of purposeful and malignant violence, and I am somewhat shocked to hear, especially from a citizen of a country which has its self suffered so from terrorist attacks, from bombings to mortar attacks on 10 Downing street, such a shockingly naive stand. No innocent person deserves to die, certainly not the Israeli children blown apart by a suicide bomber, certainly not the Palastinian child caught in a cross fire and certainly not a 2 year old American child slammed into a skyscraper at 300 plus miles per hour. But die they do-- and unless firm measures are taken by the World community, they will keep dying. As long as populations and governments supply the fanatics needs, "innocents" will die, Period. As to the inference I am racist in some way because I mention a particular group, that contemptable suggestion reveals exactly how off base you are and displays a shocking lack of character as well.No where did I ever suggest the despicable concept you seem to imply Myself and other Americans hold as regards eliminating people because they dont like or agree with us. You lower yourself to the gutter with that type of blathering. Surely you are a more enlightened person than that. If you are scared,you are not alone but such inuendos and insulting implications as you are throwing around do not earn you much in the way of sympathy or respect. Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote previously and this time use your mental facilities to analyze it instead of your emotions, which clearly impede your ability to communicate in a rational manner. It is also amazing to me that anyone could try to bring "sanity" into anything as insane as war. There is nothing rational or sane about killing.But sometimes it must be done to prevent an even greater calamity.As long as these terrorist cowards hide among women and children, hide in cities, hide in refugee camps, there will be casualties ,regardless of how one tries to go about"eliminating" the principal "players". That is the hard cold truth even if it doesnot fit into your neat little concept of things. There is no sanity in war or conflict. War has no winners--one side simply loses less than the other and when it is over we are all losers in many ways. But better to stop this growing tide of World wide organized murder, and quickly, than to suffer it any longer. The best way to do that is, to quote again Gen. W.T. Sherman, "..Make war so terrible that generations will pass before they think of resorting to it again." Tom

[airubin]

Mark and Thomas

The world we live in is not a simple place and there are no easy solutions to its problems. We are currently focused on the WTC tragedy and terrorism, which is what I will address here.

However, there is human suffering and tragedies throughout the world that are either ignored or given lip service. This includes starvation and genocide.

My wife and I attended an unveiling for her aunt who died a year ago. Since it is the custom at the Jewish New Year to visit the gravesites of family members, we spent a considerable amount of time at the cemetery.

After, the family gathered at a relative’s house for the usual discussion of the memories of the person being remembered. Naturally, the discussion turned to the sad events of the past week. Two family members were within two blocks of the WTC and were evacuated from their offices just before the building collapsed. One actually took the subway to get home, only to go one stop, which was under the WTC. She was in the subway when the towers collapsed. Therefore, we were also celebrating our relatives luck.

It is a natural gut reaction to want to strike quickly and with force. It is also easy to paint everyone with the same brush, regardless of his or her innocence.

It is my hope that a clear and doable policy will evolve in the aftermath of this terrorist attack. It should include a coordinated international commitment to fight terrorism and a futile prolonged ground war should be avoided.

Israel is attacking and killing those who are responsible for the terrorism. They try to avoid harm to civilians as much as possible. I do not know if this will be an effective approach, but it makes sense to hit at the source of the problem.


The US is not the only country that has reason to combat terrorism. Every effort should be made to isolate all the countries that support and harbor the terrorists. However, getting this cooperation will not be easy as the complexity of world politics is always a factor. Prudent diplomacy is required and this requires time.

A few of my relatives are in favor of isolating Moslems from mainstream America. This was in part the result of reported examples of cheering in local Moslem communities.

I believe that these incidents are not reprehensive most Moslems living in America. It strikes at the basic values of our society when we consider restricting people’s freedom unjustly. The overwhelming majority of immigrants come to the US for freedom and a chance for a better life.

The United States, which is beacon of freedom, does not have a perfect past. Some of our darker moments include slavery, the treatment of the Indians and the internment of Japanese-American citizens during WW2. As I said, the world is not a perfect place and it is important to do ones best to make it the best we can. This applies to individuals as well as nations.

One of my loves is history, particular American History between 1750-1850. I am impressed with individuals who founded our country. They differed in many ways, being liberal, conservative, northern, southern, landowners, farmers, etc.; but they all came together for the common goal of freedom and liberty. It is particularly interesting to see how our country truly becomes the nation that we know it today during the first thirty years of 1800’s. The national government, with its guidance from constitutional law, almost did not survive, as we know it today. Freedom is very precious and we should not take it for granted.

[Ed_L]

Alan said: "A few of my relatives are in favor of isolating Moslems from mainstream America.
This was in part the result of reported examples of cheering in local Moslem communities."

Who reported these examples? I'm not saying they are false, but I would like to know who reported them. A short distance from my home, there is a gas station which is owned or operated by an Arab. After the attack on the WTC, someone started a rumor that this man said to a customer "See what we can do to you?" He allegedly then refused to sell gasoline to the customer. I have bought gas several times from that station, and I find it *extremely* hard to believe he would say a thing like that, or refuse service to any customer. That would be lunacrist, especially at a time like this. We don't need people with deep prejudices to make matters worse. I am not referring to anyone in particular. Strictly over the board.

Alan also said "It is my hope that a clear and doable policy will evolve in the aftermath of this
terrorist attack. It should include a coordinated international commitment to fight
terrorism and a futile prolonged ground war should be avoided."

That sounds great, but in my opinion, the depth of the war will depend on how much the other nations are willing to do. If it is left up to the U.S. to do alone, I'm afraid it will take in a great deal more territory, and with many more governments involved than if we had a good faith commitment from many nations to go in and rid the world of this curse right from the start. If most of the world would do their part of ridding the world of terrorism, I think it would be much better for mankind in general. However, I'm afraid that the U.S. will be the only ones to actually go to war to save the whole world. I sincerely hope I'm wrong on this one. If other countries don't want the war widened, they had better be ready to help right from the start. We're gonna do it one way or another.

Ed

[DJ Dubovsky]

Well said Alan. Nice to see you back.
This is a very complex situation and we as a people do not have all the facts to make the decision on how to deal with this situation. The stability of alot of those Middle Eastern countries is very delicate. No matter what happens innocents will pay the price. If we do nothing innocents pay by more terrorists plots and they will get worse, of that there is no doubt. They have weapons far more destructive to human life than just crashing into buildings. Chemical and Bio agents are far more destructive. If we force their hand by sanctions against the nations harboring them, innocents will pay by lack of food, medicines and other necessities not to mention the wars that will insue. If we make a direct attack on thier installations, innocents will pay just by being near by. There is no sane way out of this. No matter what we do or don't do it will cost lives of innocent people. This is the world we live in and history has not changed since man first walked this earth and as much as I would like it to, it will be no different now. I thank God I don't have to make these decisions because I am not sure I could. I only hope our government and other governments make the best possible decisions for the least amount of human sacrifice. And may God be with us all the way.
DJ

[thomasgeorge]

Alan, you are correct in much of what you say. The thought of Isolating those of the Islamic faith because they cheered is foolish---there were and are those of the Christian faith who did and continue to do the same. This is not a racial or religious issue. This is a fight, the outcome of which will decide the fate of humanity for generations to come.Either the better angels of our nature will win or this entire globe will enter a new Dark Age. That is no exaggeration. If bigotry, revenge, hatred, greed and all their attendant evil accomplices are allowed to prosper and grow, like a cancer slowly devouring its host, our civilized world will vanish only to be replaced by unyielding fanatics of all types who will "call the shots". We have already seen the Fanatics of the Islamic and Christian faiths spouting intolerance and justifications which simply are perversions of the teachings of both great faiths.How nice it would be to see sanity rule! Unfortunately, sometimes diplomacy and restraint are looked upon with contempt and treated as weakness... then the only path left is to resort to what those rejecting reason understand--and that involves the use of violent means, as well as economic strangulation, the use of food as a weapon to starve out the populations of the countries supporting and aiding terrorist groups and every other tool we have at our disposal. This is going to be a long and very heart breaking experience,but the alternative , which could very well happen if there is not wide spread support for US led actions, will be a return to the Pre-WW1 mentality of Isolationism, with the US locking its borders, pulling out all our troops from overseas nations,canceling and with holding Aide payments to nations and groups like the Palestinians. It will happen if the free world and those of true Islam donot unite and crush this malignant evil which threatens to engulf us all. All it would take is one Presidential and congressional election where hard liners from the extreme right gained a majority.Dont "poo-poo" this--the German people made that mistake and didnt take the Nazi party seriously.In their arrogance the "elite" thought they could control Hitler and bend him to their will. Very big miscalculation. In short, to quote Ben Franklin " If we dont hang together we shall surely hang seperately". The unsavory fact that civilians are going to suffer, not only death but disease, starvation and economic meltdown, had better just be accepted as part of the gastly price we all, ( be we Muslim, Jew, Christian, Buddist , etc.), are going to have to pay to clean this mess up. If that price tag is too high, consider the alternative--a world run by fanatics. Tom

[Markzebra]

I think we need to remember that discussions like this are part of what makes this a democracy.

Sorry this is a long post ... but I feel I need to try and make my point please bare with me

The main issue as far as I can see is the use of the word "war" and what it really means.
In this case there are two problems with the idea of war.

1 No-one yet knows who the war is with.
2 Historically war has been waged against countries, not against groups. If the al Qaeda actually is responsible for this they have bases all over the world. The truth may be that those responsible may amount to less than a few hundred people. On the subject of cowardice: The actual PERPETRATORS ARE ALREADY DEAD. I'm afraid the word cowardice just doesn't fit in this instance.

Some facts about the politics in Afghanistan need to be understood too. The Taliban is a brutal regime which has imposed itself largely from OUTSIDE on the people of Afghanistan - who are basically refugees in their own country, destitute and poor. Bin Laden was supported for years also by the CIA during the cold war.

Democracy means nothing when missiles are aimed in the vicinity of women and children. Condemning people for their religious or other opinions is completely undemocratic I agree with you. The news footage that has been seen around the world as I have said of people rejoicing in the streets firstly is irresponsible journalism, and secondly according to those that actually live in these countries represents a minority opinion.

An Arab once said to me when trying to explain the Middle East "When you live with nothing you are dead already". I'm afraid that is now what we are dealing with.

Needless retaliations and civilian deaths in any place of the world are wrong. Remember HOW EASY these attacks actually were, and try to imagine how easy they would be to repeat. Of course retaliation HAS to happen - BUT PROPERLY TARGETED. I'm afraid the US has a very bad record in this area already. What we all hope is that the US retains its moral high ground and doesn't repeat the mistakes of the past -as I said violence breeds violence.

I never mentioned appeasement.

War has already been "so terrible that generations will pass before they think of resorting to it again". Unfortunately some people seem to be incapable of learning the lesson. What we have learned from years of conflict with the IRA is simply that violence begets violence. This act of terrorism also goes far beyond any previous act.

[thomasgeorge]

Mark, you make some excellent points , however, it is known who this war is with--Fanatics who target civilian populations in order to maim and kill . There is no valid reason for them to do this. None.Period. War has historically been waged against groups as well as countries--Example is the U.S. declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates in the early1800's-- a group much like those now targeted. The logic that the perpetrators are already dead so why do anything, is flawed--accomplices who harbored, supplied and knowingly assisted the perpetrators are guilty as well, that is a legal precedent and a moral one as well which goes far back in history. A coward is one who seeks to avoid responsibility for his or her actions; by their actions, these individuals, indeed all suicide bombers etc., are the consumate cowards. Please explain the bad record of the U.S. you refer to. If you are refering to the command and communication bunker filled with women and children which was hit during the Gulf War, that is not valid. The Iraq leadership encouraged them to use it---knowing full well it was a legitimate target. If you are refering to the bombing of the Chinese Embassy, in a war zone there are no protected places. The Country in question had full knowledge of what was happening and allowed its people to remain in harms way. It is startling to hear you insinuate that the firm response of the UK to IRA activities has not helped. In all truth it has.It brought them to the truce table. There will always be and always have been individuals to whom nothing matters except the joy of wanton violence. There is nothing you can do with those type except to confine them for life or kill them. I donot believe I ever said target civilians with missiles and bombs. Neither has The U.S. government. The knowledge that civilians are most likely going to be killed and injured is nothing which we as Americans take any pleasure in at all. But you had better understand that unless these fanatics are stopped and their orginizations broken up, leaders eliminated and countries and populations made aware of the terrible price they will have to pay for supporting them, far worse than What happened to NYC and Washington DC will occur, only this time it will may be directed at a European city , perhaps London, perhaps Paris or Brussels. Nobody wants to see anyone die. No sane person wants to fling high explosives randomly around. America has an excellent record of trying to talk our way through problems, even to the extent of being considered weak and spineless and decadent . That is perhaps partly the cause of the current situation--Tolerance and patience are looked upon as weakness by many, but being civilized, that is what we try first. Your skeptical remarks about my quote of Gen. Sherman, ignore two countries who felt that policy implemented in full and in the spirit it was intended--Germany and Japan. They are today shining examples of Peace loving and responsible Nations who's citizens display a cultural and intellectual aversion to war and as a result have contributed immeasurably to the advancement of civilization. Please read my post " Is it Worth it?" in the Salon area, and perhaps you will begin to understand why not only myself but the majority of Americans, while abhoring violence and NOT screaming for immediate indiscriminate response, none the less demand that when a response comes it be sustained and overwhelming in nature and if civilians are accidently killed, that is horrible but unavoidable due to the cowardly way in which the Terrorists use them as human shields and due to the policy of the responsible governments and the people themselves in supporting them. I would be sickened beyond words to see any city anywhere hit by a weapon of mass destruction by terrorist action. But if these madmen are not eliminated and quickly, it will happen. Typically 1-2 years pass from major attack to major attack by this confederation of degenerates-- if we dont act now who will next bear the brunt of this insanity? I am not willing to see London, Moscow, Bejing, Tokyo, New Dehli or any city filled with people subjected to what NYC and Washington DC are going through--no American is, but foot dragging, platitudes and excess caution make that a possibility. Tom