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Old 09-16-2001, 08:21 PM
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DJ Dubovsky DJ Dubovsky is offline
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Well said Alan. Nice to see you back.
This is a very complex situation and we as a people do not have all the facts to make the decision on how to deal with this situation. The stability of alot of those Middle Eastern countries is very delicate. No matter what happens innocents will pay the price. If we do nothing innocents pay by more terrorists plots and they will get worse, of that there is no doubt. They have weapons far more destructive to human life than just crashing into buildings. Chemical and Bio agents are far more destructive. If we force their hand by sanctions against the nations harboring them, innocents will pay by lack of food, medicines and other necessities not to mention the wars that will insue. If we make a direct attack on thier installations, innocents will pay just by being near by. There is no sane way out of this. No matter what we do or don't do it will cost lives of innocent people. This is the world we live in and history has not changed since man first walked this earth and as much as I would like it to, it will be no different now. I thank God I don't have to make these decisions because I am not sure I could. I only hope our government and other governments make the best possible decisions for the least amount of human sacrifice. And may God be with us all the way.
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Old 09-16-2001, 08:58 PM
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thomasgeorge thomasgeorge is offline
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Alan, you are correct in much of what you say. The thought of Isolating those of the Islamic faith because they cheered is foolish---there were and are those of the Christian faith who did and continue to do the same. This is not a racial or religious issue. This is a fight, the outcome of which will decide the fate of humanity for generations to come.Either the better angels of our nature will win or this entire globe will enter a new Dark Age. That is no exaggeration. If bigotry, revenge, hatred, greed and all their attendant evil accomplices are allowed to prosper and grow, like a cancer slowly devouring its host, our civilized world will vanish only to be replaced by unyielding fanatics of all types who will "call the shots". We have already seen the Fanatics of the Islamic and Christian faiths spouting intolerance and justifications which simply are perversions of the teachings of both great faiths.How nice it would be to see sanity rule! Unfortunately, sometimes diplomacy and restraint are looked upon with contempt and treated as weakness... then the only path left is to resort to what those rejecting reason understand--and that involves the use of violent means, as well as economic strangulation, the use of food as a weapon to starve out the populations of the countries supporting and aiding terrorist groups and every other tool we have at our disposal. This is going to be a long and very heart breaking experience,but the alternative , which could very well happen if there is not wide spread support for US led actions, will be a return to the Pre-WW1 mentality of Isolationism, with the US locking its borders, pulling out all our troops from overseas nations,canceling and with holding Aide payments to nations and groups like the Palestinians. It will happen if the free world and those of true Islam donot unite and crush this malignant evil which threatens to engulf us all. All it would take is one Presidential and congressional election where hard liners from the extreme right gained a majority.Dont "poo-poo" this--the German people made that mistake and didnt take the Nazi party seriously.In their arrogance the "elite" thought they could control Hitler and bend him to their will. Very big miscalculation. In short, to quote Ben Franklin " If we dont hang together we shall surely hang seperately". The unsavory fact that civilians are going to suffer, not only death but disease, starvation and economic meltdown, had better just be accepted as part of the gastly price we all, ( be we Muslim, Jew, Christian, Buddist , etc.), are going to have to pay to clean this mess up. If that price tag is too high, consider the alternative--a world run by fanatics. Tom

Last edited by thomasgeorge; 09-17-2001 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 09-17-2001, 06:01 PM
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Markzebra Markzebra is offline
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I think we need to remember that discussions like this are part of what makes this a democracy.

Sorry this is a long post ... but I feel I need to try and make my point please bare with me

The main issue as far as I can see is the use of the word "war" and what it really means.
In this case there are two problems with the idea of war.

1 No-one yet knows who the war is with.
2 Historically war has been waged against countries, not against groups. If the al Qaeda actually is responsible for this they have bases all over the world. The truth may be that those responsible may amount to less than a few hundred people. On the subject of cowardice: The actual PERPETRATORS ARE ALREADY DEAD. I'm afraid the word cowardice just doesn't fit in this instance.

Some facts about the politics in Afghanistan need to be understood too. The Taliban is a brutal regime which has imposed itself largely from OUTSIDE on the people of Afghanistan - who are basically refugees in their own country, destitute and poor. Bin Laden was supported for years also by the CIA during the cold war.

Democracy means nothing when missiles are aimed in the vicinity of women and children. Condemning people for their religious or other opinions is completely undemocratic I agree with you. The news footage that has been seen around the world as I have said of people rejoicing in the streets firstly is irresponsible journalism, and secondly according to those that actually live in these countries represents a minority opinion.

An Arab once said to me when trying to explain the Middle East "When you live with nothing you are dead already". I'm afraid that is now what we are dealing with.

Needless retaliations and civilian deaths in any place of the world are wrong. Remember HOW EASY these attacks actually were, and try to imagine how easy they would be to repeat. Of course retaliation HAS to happen - BUT PROPERLY TARGETED. I'm afraid the US has a very bad record in this area already. What we all hope is that the US retains its moral high ground and doesn't repeat the mistakes of the past -as I said violence breeds violence.

I never mentioned appeasement.

War has already been "so terrible that generations will pass before they think of resorting to it again". Unfortunately some people seem to be incapable of learning the lesson. What we have learned from years of conflict with the IRA is simply that violence begets violence. This act of terrorism also goes far beyond any previous act.

Last edited by Ed_L; 09-17-2001 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 09-17-2001, 08:31 PM
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thomasgeorge thomasgeorge is offline
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Mark, you make some excellent points , however, it is known who this war is with--Fanatics who target civilian populations in order to maim and kill . There is no valid reason for them to do this. None.Period. War has historically been waged against groups as well as countries--Example is the U.S. declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates in the early1800's-- a group much like those now targeted. The logic that the perpetrators are already dead so why do anything, is flawed--accomplices who harbored, supplied and knowingly assisted the perpetrators are guilty as well, that is a legal precedent and a moral one as well which goes far back in history. A coward is one who seeks to avoid responsibility for his or her actions; by their actions, these individuals, indeed all suicide bombers etc., are the consumate cowards. Please explain the bad record of the U.S. you refer to. If you are refering to the command and communication bunker filled with women and children which was hit during the Gulf War, that is not valid. The Iraq leadership encouraged them to use it---knowing full well it was a legitimate target. If you are refering to the bombing of the Chinese Embassy, in a war zone there are no protected places. The Country in question had full knowledge of what was happening and allowed its people to remain in harms way. It is startling to hear you insinuate that the firm response of the UK to IRA activities has not helped. In all truth it has.It brought them to the truce table. There will always be and always have been individuals to whom nothing matters except the joy of wanton violence. There is nothing you can do with those type except to confine them for life or kill them. I donot believe I ever said target civilians with missiles and bombs. Neither has The U.S. government. The knowledge that civilians are most likely going to be killed and injured is nothing which we as Americans take any pleasure in at all. But you had better understand that unless these fanatics are stopped and their orginizations broken up, leaders eliminated and countries and populations made aware of the terrible price they will have to pay for supporting them, far worse than What happened to NYC and Washington DC will occur, only this time it will may be directed at a European city , perhaps London, perhaps Paris or Brussels. Nobody wants to see anyone die. No sane person wants to fling high explosives randomly around. America has an excellent record of trying to talk our way through problems, even to the extent of being considered weak and spineless and decadent . That is perhaps partly the cause of the current situation--Tolerance and patience are looked upon as weakness by many, but being civilized, that is what we try first. Your skeptical remarks about my quote of Gen. Sherman, ignore two countries who felt that policy implemented in full and in the spirit it was intended--Germany and Japan. They are today shining examples of Peace loving and responsible Nations who's citizens display a cultural and intellectual aversion to war and as a result have contributed immeasurably to the advancement of civilization. Please read my post " Is it Worth it?" in the Salon area, and perhaps you will begin to understand why not only myself but the majority of Americans, while abhoring violence and NOT screaming for immediate indiscriminate response, none the less demand that when a response comes it be sustained and overwhelming in nature and if civilians are accidently killed, that is horrible but unavoidable due to the cowardly way in which the Terrorists use them as human shields and due to the policy of the responsible governments and the people themselves in supporting them. I would be sickened beyond words to see any city anywhere hit by a weapon of mass destruction by terrorist action. But if these madmen are not eliminated and quickly, it will happen. Typically 1-2 years pass from major attack to major attack by this confederation of degenerates-- if we dont act now who will next bear the brunt of this insanity? I am not willing to see London, Moscow, Bejing, Tokyo, New Dehli or any city filled with people subjected to what NYC and Washington DC are going through--no American is, but foot dragging, platitudes and excess caution make that a possibility. Tom

Last edited by thomasgeorge; 09-17-2001 at 08:54 PM.
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