The pictures from Iraq

[Ed_L]

It's hard to find words to describe how the American people feel about the alarming pictures coming out of Iraq today. I'm absolutely positive that almost 100% of U. S.citizens are saddened by the actions of a few of us. It won't mean much, but I'd like to apologize to the citizens of the world for what has happened. I only hope those responsible are to pay dearly. It doesn't matter whether or not we approve of the war, as individuals. None of us find this to be acceptable behavior. Those are the only words I can find.

Ed

[heresiarh]

I don't know what is wrong with the world today. What is anyone gaining from destroying Iraq. I just hope some heads will turn and such atrocities will end completely.

We are all people of the earth, drink the same water, eat the same food.

[Horaz]

I agree with you both, what the heck is going on? Anyway, now all the recent news is people denying everything and that the pics could be frabricated, etc. After reading the latest news, I was wondering if I or someone with the eye for details on photo's could find discrepancies within them. Obviously things like, were the soldiers wearing a certain type of uniform, would be tough to disinguish, but if the photos were fake, it would seem like there would be something, somewhere, that could be wrong. Has anyone thought the same thing and taken a close look at any of them?

I've been reading and visiting this site for a few months and find it very informative! This is my first post and hopefully will soon start participating in the photo related issues as well!

[Duv]

Since so many are already being reprimanded, I don't think the fake picture idea carries much weight. Canada went thru a similar situation in Somalia with a few soldiers torturing some people. It seems that no matter what country you are from, you'll find incidences like this. Some seem to really enjoy the power they hold over others but to me the real bad asses are the commanders that allow this to go on under their noses. They should be court martialed.

Dave

[ExclamPt]

Last week, I watched a documentary about a 1970s experiment conducted by a psych professor here in the U.S.

He divided paid college volunteers into two groups: guards and prisoners and set up a makeshift "prison." He almost canceled the experiment at first because no unexpected dynamics occurred.

But then, the "guards" became sadistic and power-obsessed. The "prisoners" became demoralized, contentious, and sometimes emotionally unstable.

It was much like the famous Stanley Milgram experiment, the conclusion being: "we have met the enemy, and he is us."

Too bad we're not more closely related to gorillas than chimps. All gorillas like to do is eat, sleep, and have families. I didn't come to the wisdom of this lifestyle until later years.

[heresiarh]

We just have to accept the fact that there are good people and bad people.

[Leah]

Here's a link to a BBC article on this subject (which includes a discussion of the famous Stanford Prison Experiment). Sadly, it's not as simple as "good people" and "bad people" - all the evidence over several decades suggests that most (though not all) people will behave like this under the right circumstances if there are no checks on the prevailing atmosphere and behaviour. The focus needs to be on ensuring that the "right circumstances" don't arise and that there are such checks.

[Ed_L]

Originally Posted by Leah

The focus needs to be on ensuring that the "right circumstances" don't arise and that there are such checks.

As much as I hate to say this, I just don't see that happening. And since most people would act like that under the "right circumstances", does that mean they should not be held accountable? Or maybe someone else should be held accountable?

Ed

[Leah]

Yes, they should be held accountable. Many, many types of behaviour could be induced in people under the "right" circumstances, but society as a whole cannot function unless people are held accountable for those types of behaviour.

It all depends on what you want to achieve - you can just hold people accountable after the event, but if you want to stop the abuses happening in the first place you need to accept that you can't just rely on the inherent decency of the human spirit to do it.

As per the BBC article, those in senior positions of responsibility need to be up-front and specific about what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable behaviour and about the need to maintain professionalism, and need to make sure that that is enforced rather than let slide. I agree that there will always be abuses somewhere that need to be dealt with after the fact, but the extent of them can be reduced. Frankly I think that the first step is recognising that the fact that the men under your command are upright, well-balanced, reasonable people does not mean that you can overlook the potential issues that could arise - it's something that needs to be talked about and followed up on.

[ExclamPt]

For a real "shocker," check out the Stanley Milgram experiment at Yale:

http://home.swbell.net/revscat/perilsOfObedience.html

Sixty per cent of Milgram's subjects were willing to shock a subject into unconsiousness or even death when so ordered by an authority figure.

[Leah]

I personally find the Stanford experiment more shocking, because the subjects in that were not ordered to do anything -- they just spontaneously started torturing and abusing the other subjects. But Milgram's is also a classic result and a sobering insight into human nature.

[Duv]

What I find disconcerting is that this is one bubble that floated to the top of the glass and popped. How many more bubbles are out there that haven't popped that we don't know about? I mean, how much has the government been able to cover up and keep from us?

Dave

[ExclamPt]

I suppose the reason I find the Milgram experiment more sobering is the subject's willingness to go to such extremes.

Milgram, who is Jewish, originally wondered if there was something unique to the German personality which would explain the Holocaust. His original intention was to take the experiment to Germany. However, his results in America convinced him that the excuse and license of "just following orders" is not unique to that culture or nation. He had no need to go to Germany to validate his fears.

[Gary Richardson]

Hi, just a foreign perspective on things. Your troops are not the only ones involved in prisoner abuse. British troops have also been accused of the same offences, and images published in the media. I don't suppose this made news in the U.S as I found your news broadcasts pretty insular when I was on a ski vacation in Vail recently. But it seems that everyone is capable of extreme behaviour when placed in extraordinary circumstances. Surely the stress now shoud be on reinforcing systems in place to ensure that occurences of this type do not happen again.

[chris h]

It's generally believed the pictures published in the UK tabloids were fake. However at the end of the day setting armies to control civilians never works, the former being trained to destroy opposition not pander to it.