Software - - Please test new freeware selection plugin (GML CrowCut)

Dead Moroz · #1 10-13-2005, 11:06 PM

Hello everyone!

For several past years there have been a lot of activity in computer vision science community (especially in microsoft research), trying to create some advanced selection and image cutout tools (instead of magic wand and magnetic lasso), but none has found its way to the user yet

.

We have lately created out own technique for that

:
http://graphics.cs.msu.su/en/researc...ent/index.html

and implemented it in a Adobe Photoshop selection plugin (freeware), that can be downloaded right here:
http://vision.graphicon.ru/soft/en/GrowCut/

What we are very interested in - is the feedback from Photoshop professionals and amateurs. Is the plugin in any way useful? What is good, what is bad, what should be improved?

Our plan is to develop it further, but not based on some pure scientific interest, but on the needs of the Photoshop users. So we would be grateful for any feedback on it

Stroker · #2 10-13-2005, 11:53 PM

I was reading about segmentation some time ago. Might even have been your paper.

Kudos, and wow!

Took a bit of getting used to, but I'm seriously liking it.

Two little things so far:
- seperate brush size for Eraser
- space bar to pan around

Panpan · #3 10-14-2005, 12:53 AM

It's great for continuous selections, but I can't make it work well for discontinuous like hair with the background showing through. It made a mess of the first example. Is there a technique I'm missing?

Selections are not completely objective so the ai cannot be expected to succeed 100%. I tried GrowCut on a subjective selection, i.e. selecting a nose. It was actually a hindrance for that because there's no way to give it appropriate instructions in that situation. The image on the left is my unassisted selection; the other one is with GrowCut.

I wish the plugin followed the Photoshop keyboard conventions (ctrl-a, ctrl-d,[, etc.) and that the size of the working image were more than a little window.

In spite of all that, I can see how this will help make some selections a lot easier.

Pierre

Stroker · #4 10-14-2005, 01:51 AM

Panpan, maybe an analogy will help you know when GrowCut is good and when it is not so good.

Imagine an image as a petri dish. Now imagine putting 2 different kinds of bacteria in the petri dish, one red and one blue. Then the two are allowed to grow in the image petri dish using the image petri as rules for where and how they grow. After growing using the image dish, the blue bacteria will be transparent and the red bacteria will be opaque.

I hope that makes sense.

Moroz, GrowCut doesn't seem to like edge boundaries. Don't know if this can be fixed or not.

I also ran into a problem with a 'hole'. It was kind of like a winged-edge hole if you are familiar with that technology. Had to get crazy with the Boundary brush to fill it in.

Dead Moroz · #5 10-14-2005, 02:07 AM

Really glad to see that people here (at least two of them) find is useful

I'm a little busy right now, I'll answer questions/comments later. The second author of this plugin should join the forum shortly, he will also participate in discussion.

Dead Moroz · #6 10-14-2005, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stroker

Moroz, GrowCut doesn't seem to like edge boundaries. Don't know if this can be fixed or not.

What is "doesn't like"?

My english fails me here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stroker

I also ran into a problem with a 'hole'. It was kind of like a winged-edge hole if you are familiar with that technology. Had to get crazy with the Boundary brush to fill it in.

Can you show an example image where you encountered the problem?

Stroker · #7 10-14-2005, 02:13 AM

I can't seem to reproduce the 'hole' that I had earlier.

However, I did manage to break GrowCut. Doesn't seem to like breaks in the red line.

1. Image with good line for cutting
2. Blue line along one side to make transparent
3. Red line along other side to make opaque
4. Eraser to erase a tiny bit of red to break the red line
5. Click Next
6. Crash
7. Restart Photoshop

edit:
Sorry. I'll explain the edge boundary thing later.

Stroker · #8 10-14-2005, 02:35 AM

Still can't get the 'hole'. If I can get it again, I'll be paying better attention and post details.

Edge boundary thing.

There is a default blue boundary when I get started with painting blue and red. I can try to paint the edge red, but my mouse gets very laggy if the center of the brush leaves the preview boundary. Then the mouse will behave as if I have the button down and I have to click out it. Particularly annoying with scroll bars. Probably something to do with event trapping or something. I don't know.

Okay. Now, even if I do manage to paint red at the boundaries, I still end up with a 1px edge border that is transparent even though I painted it red.

I'm having a blast with GrowCut.

That's about it from me for now.

Vadim · #9 10-14-2005, 02:50 AM

Hi everyone, i am the second creator of GrowCut. I am also here for receiving some feedback from the users.

Vadim · #10 10-14-2005, 03:12 AM

Quote:

There is a default blue boundary when I get started with painting blue and red. I can try to paint the edge red, but my mouse gets very laggy if the center of the brush leaves the preview boundary. Then the mouse will behave as if I have the button down and I have to click out it. Particularly annoying with scroll bars. Probably something to do with event trapping or something. I don't know.

Does mouse behave as if the button is still down only when you release the button over scrolls or even somewhere else? (i managed to reproduce it only when releasing it over the scrolls - and this bug will be fixed)

Quote:

Okay. Now, even if I do manage to paint red at the boundaries, I still end up with a 1px edge border that is transparent even though I painted it red.

I think we'll get rid of that 1px edge transparent border soon. And to remove the default border you must select a rectangle in the first dialog around the image (when the image is zoomed, so it is less, than the whole preview window, you can click the mouse button inside the preview window, but to the left and above the image, and to release it to the right and below the image). It is not very intuitively, so we would like to hear your proposals about this.

Quote:

However, I did manage to break GrowCut. Doesn't seem to like breaks in the red line.

Unfortunately, I didn't manage to reproduce this crash. Could you try it again and to write more details about it?

Quote:

Two little things so far:
- seperate brush size for Eraser
- space bar to pan around

Seperate brush size - ok.
And what is "pan around"?

And finally,

Quote:

I'm having a blast with GrowCut

What does it mean? (i don't know this expression) Does it mean, that you like it or quite the opposite?

Kraellin · #11 10-14-2005, 08:01 AM

welcome to retouchpro, moroz and vadim! and thank you for your plugin.

Quote:

What is "doesn't like"?

'doesn't' is does not. it is what we call a 'contraction' in english. we put two words together and use them as one.

'like' is have affinity for. 'he doesnt like swimming.' means he has no affinity for swimming.

Quote:

Moroz, GrowCut doesn't seem to like edge boundaries.

so this means growcut works poorly with edge boundaries.

Quote:

I'm having a blast with GrowCut.

means 'i'm having a lot of fun with GrowCut.' yes, it is an english expression. slang. 'having a blast' means having a lot of fun.

'pan around' means to move the image around as if you were moving a camera around. 'pan' means to move the view around, like if you were moving a camera around. and 'around' means all over. so, 'pan around' means to move the camera view all over.

does growcut also work with other adobe compatible plugin programs? i use paint shop pro 10. will it work with that and will it work with other programs besides photoshop?

Craig

cricket1961 · #12 10-14-2005, 12:02 PM

I would love to try it out guys. Is it Mac compatible?

Chris

Kraellin · #13 10-14-2005, 12:09 PM

it does not work in paint shop pro 10. it is an .8bs extension and paint shop pro wants an .8bf for plugins. it would not load in. i even tried changing the extension to .8bf and it did not work.

Craig

Cameraken · #14 10-14-2005, 01:20 PM

Hi Moroz and Vadim.
Welcome to Retouchpro and Thank you for your plug-in.

I could not wait to try this so I installed is at work this afternoon (Win ME and PS5 – yes Five)
The setup program installed into a PS7 Folder by default but once I had moved it to my PS5 folder it worked fine.

I did have the same problem as Stroker the first couple of times I used it where the right mouse button seemed to be locked down. But after trying it on a couple of pictures it seemed to go right and then I could not even repeat it. So I’ll put that down to user error.

I am now on my other PC (XP PS7). The setup program worked fine.

Here are a few suggestions.

Step 1.

Once the selection is made there is no way to adjust it. Maybe a grab tool or selection handles to adjust.

Step 2.
An Eraser rather than a clear button would be good.

Step 3.
The refine Button only seems to work once. Also it needs an Undo so that you could try it with and without smoothing. (Or maybe a slider would be good)

The black squares make it difficult to see the selection on dark areas. So maybe a choice of colours for the mask. Or maybe an Invert button so that we could invert the selection to see what is selected.

The Combine Selections is Great. I didn’t expect it to work like that when I already had a selection. Great Idea.

One last thing.
I would make the instructions smaller (or get rid of them altogether). You don’t need instructions after using it once or twice and then we could have a bigger area to see the image.

This is a Great piece of software. Far better that the extract tool. And I’m sure I will use it as it is. Even if you don’t add the features above.

I used it to extract the car here. (In my second Post)

http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/photo-retouching/11813-color-help.html

Ken

Dead Moroz · #15 10-14-2005, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraellin

this means growcut works poorly with edge boundaries.

Well, my English is not THAT bad (at least I hope so

) What I meant - is some more details on the edge problem. We just didn't notice any problem with that during our tests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraellin

means 'i'm having a lot of fun with GrowCut.' yes, it is an english expression. slang. 'having a blast' means having a lot of fun.

That's some good news

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraellin

'pan around' means to move the image around as if you were moving a camera around. 'pan' means to move the view around, like if you were moving a camera around. and 'around' means all over. so, 'pan around' means to move the camera view all over.

Like Photoshop 'hand' tool, I suppose?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraellin

does growcut also work with other adobe compatible plugin programs? i use paint shop pro 10. will it work with that and will it work with other programs besides photoshop?

It should work Ok on any program that support Photoshop selection plugins. I'm not quite sure whether Paint Shop Pro does. It surely does support filtering plugins (.8bf), but what about selection (.8bs)? I don't know, I'll try to check...