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Software Photoshop, Lightroom, Paintshop Pro, Painter, etc., and all their various plugins. Of course, you can also discuss all other programs, as well.

GML GrowCut 1.1 (including version for Paint Shop Pro)

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  #11  
Old 11-29-2005, 08:29 AM
Cameraken's Avatar
Cameraken Cameraken is offline
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Hi Garazon.

In PS Grow Cut Masks works on a layer. So if you dupe your layer then run GrowCut Mask on the top layer it should save you from having to open the picture again.
Just a thought. Should make it a little quicker to use.
I don’t know if this will work in PSP.

ps.
Great job on your ‘Finishing Touch’ picture.


Ken
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2005, 09:26 AM
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Panpan Panpan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
Actually we've done some bug fix of the "old" interface in GML GrowCut 1.1 and added several requests from people here (like pan with space). Maybe you know some bugs that we don't?
I will do as you suggested in another post: I will uninstall the version I had before installing the new one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
Regarding the 'undo' - what actions would you like to have oppotunity to undo in the first place?
I would like to be able to undo the latest action I made; for instance, undo the latest stroke instead of having to erase it. Multiple undos with ctrl-alt-z would be even nicer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
We'll put your other requests (mouse wheel, toggle draw/erase) in our pending feature requests list. BTW - how would you like to toggle draw/erase? By some keyboard key?
Drawing while pressing the alt key would be in the spirit of Photoshop conventions.

If an erase toggle or an undo are too difficult, maybe the possibility of different sizes for the pen and eraser would be easier. I always select a wider eraser than the stroke I'm trying to erase.

Pierre
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  #13  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:54 PM
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Dead Moroz Dead Moroz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraellin
dead_moroz,
am i reading this right? was this how it was intended? and would it be possible to, when you've got the object selected in grow cut, to simply pull it directly as a new image or as a new image on a new layer and not even bother with making a mask if desired as an option?
Craig
Moving the selected object of the mask to a new layer is good idea indeed, that should save pretty much time for the user. We should investigate how this can be done through the part of Photoshop API supported in PSP.

However, I still think it's better to make a mask than cutting out the selected object, because PSP can make a selection from it, or the user can edit this mask (invert, smooth, etc.) to get the exact selection he wants. What do you think?
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  #14  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:57 PM
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Dead Moroz Dead Moroz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garazon
I'm using PSP 9 and my findings and thoughts are basically the same as Craig's above. In my opinion it would be far more useful to have the result extracted as a new image or on a new layer of the original image it was obtained from rather than converting it to a binary black and white image, that then has to be turned into a mask.
Yes, as I already said - this sounds logical

Quote:
Originally Posted by garazon
I don't want to sound unappreciative, thanks for thinking about the PSPers but unless I am missing something, this seems to add a lot of unnecessary steps to extracting a selection from an image. And I may be missing the point of the whole thing, I am prone to do that at times! At present I fail to see any advantage over using the smart edge or edge finder settings in the freehand selection tool of PSP to directly select the part of an image I want to extract.
Well, it's up to you to decide - whether GrowCut is useful or not In my experience I usually spend less efforts using GrowCut instead of magnetic lasso in PS or smart edge in PSP (not always, of course, but in most cases).
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  #15  
Old 12-01-2005, 04:13 PM
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Dead Moroz Dead Moroz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameraken
Hi Dead Moroz

I downloaded
GrowCutMaskSetup1_1.exe
GrowCutSetup1_1.exe

And ran the install OK

First thoughts

1. GrowCut Extract
Very Similar to Photoshop Extract
Very Nice. But as Pierre mentioned, you now have to paint right round the area
Full screen is better. The image is bigger
The ‘With Smoothing’ – I can’t get this button to work?

It does work better than PS Extract and the extracted area comes back as a selection, which I prefer to PS Extract.
Thanks for the comments What's the problem with "With smoothing" button?

It just changes the computation of the new strokes after it is checked/unchecked. You can see the difference if you change the it's state and press "Segment" one more time - the smothness of the border will be different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameraken
2. GrowCut
Step 3 Refine Border Still seems to only work once
I still prefer this version (ie. The way it works) but I would like to see this full screen as GrowCut Extract
After using this several times I am wondering if three steps are necessary. Step 1 seems a little unnecessary and steps 2 and 3 could perhaps be combined into one screen.
I personally prefer this variant too "Refine borders" does really work only once - that's how the algorithm is designed. First - a coarse segmentation is performed, and then fine borders are estimated.

The first step is useful for performance reasons - to speed up the work and lessen memory consumption if segmenting rather small objects in big images.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameraken
I’m not sure which direction you are trying to go in here. You have developed two very similar programs with two different interfaces, and two different methods of making the selection. Perhaps if the two programs were merged into one product. Use a screen similar to Growcut Extract but with the selection method of Growcut.
Or perhaps a checkbox to swap between the two different extract methods.
Right now it's just and experiment to find out the pros and cons of both variants...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameraken
3. GrowCut Mask Extract
Working OK – I will try to think of some uses for this.
4. GrowCut Mask
Same problem as GrowCut. ie the refine border only works once.
These two plugins are aimed for the editors that support .8bf plugins and do not support .8bs (like PSP). I'm not sure they are useful for PS users.
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  #16  
Old 12-01-2005, 04:18 PM
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Dead Moroz Dead Moroz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panpan
I would like to be able to undo the latest action I made; for instance, undo the latest stroke instead of having to erase it. Multiple undos with ctrl-alt-z would be even nicer.

Drawing while pressing the alt key would be in the spirit of Photoshop conventions.

If an erase toggle or an undo are too difficult, maybe the possibility of different sizes for the pen and eraser would be easier. I always select a wider eraser than the stroke I'm trying to erase.
Pierre
I see. Erasing with 'alt' is easy. Undo is somewhat trickier... It will almost double the amount of memory used by the plugin. Have anyone encountered memory problems with GrowCut? What size of pictures do you usuall 'feed' to it?
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  #17  
Old 12-02-2005, 01:29 PM
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Craig Walters Craig Walters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
Moving the selected object of the mask to a new layer is good idea indeed, that should save pretty much time for the user. We should investigate how this can be done through the part of Photoshop API supported in PSP.

However, I still think it's better to make a mask than cutting out the selected object, because PSP can make a selection from it, or the user can edit this mask (invert, smooth, etc.) to get the exact selection he wants. What do you think?
moroz (i'm purposely leaving out the 'dead' ),

well, when i first tried out growcut i was expecting it as the final stage to simply extract the image to a new layer. it did an excellent job of selecting what i wanted selected and i just figured this was an extraction tool and that i would get my extraction as the final step. so, ok, that wasnt the case. and, like you say, it isnt that difficult to make an extraction from the mask. so, again, ok.

i think what would be ideal would be to have the option, after you've done all the preliminary work of lining up the selection, of either making the mask on that layer, making the mask to a new layer or making an extraction to a new layer. THAT would be ideal.

now, i've NO idea what this would involve as far as programming and coding and i, like others, dont want to seem critical and ungrateful for what is truly an amazing FREE program. so, to that end, thank you! i'm also aware that your main target audience here is for PS users and quite probably rightfully so. so, again, thanks for including us psp users here!

i also dont know if you have access to psp 7, 8, 9, or 10, so maybe an explanation of what psp does and has as far as selection abilities might help here. i'm sure you know we have 'magic wand' and 'freehand, point to point, and true freehand' and also the normal boxed selection. but, one thing psp has that maybe PS doesnt have (dont know) is we can paint a mask with the normal paint tools, including paint brush, airbrush, smudge, push and so on and all at varying opacities and densities, just like a normal image painting. but, the really nice thing is we can convert that mask instantly to a selection and then do everything you can do with a normal selection. and when done, we can, if we wish, switch this back to a mask again. it's a VERY handy feature in psp 10 (and i think 9).

so, what i'm sort of looking at here as an idea is some combination of the above psp features combined with your 'growing/eating' selection process in growcut. not quite exactly sure what at this point, but i just know there's something there that could be done.

also, the last time i used growcut i was thinking that there shld be some modifiers that the user could select to modify the way the 'eating' routine selects pixels. something like 'strong', 'medium', 'soft', 'by color', much the same way you can modify the magic wand tool. now, i know you do have some of this in your 'hard', 'soft', and 'border' buttons. i was just thinking that there could be more.

also, the 'refine borders' could still use some work. i'm still ending up with jagged borders at times that i then have to use the 'soft' tool on to try to even out.

now, just so you know, i dont think it's all bad. i love the way the algorithm eats or un-eats pixels and it does this generally very intelligently. i mostly like the 'refine borders' too. and, so far, i prefer the 'growing' program more than the 'green outline' program. i just love seeing it eat the correct pixels and even when it doesnt pick out the right ones, i love the way you can get it to eat more. very slick!

oh, and one last comment. the 'soft' tool often doesnt want to do anything even with repeated attempts to make it do so. i often have to come at it from different directions or slightly different areas to get it to get what i want. i would suggest a pure 'eat this pixel' tool for those difficult areas that i know would be correct, but that the smart routine just cant quite say are ok. this would be like an override tool that unconditionally would eat X number of pixels that you clicked on. it might have to be just a one pixel tool to work right, but that would be ok.

so, again, thank you. i think you've got the makings of an excellent tool here. are you planning to eventually make this a commercial product?

Craig
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  #18  
Old 12-11-2005, 03:16 PM
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Dead Moroz Dead Moroz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraellin
moroz (i'm purposely leaving out the 'dead' ),
i think what would be ideal would be to have the option, after you've done all the preliminary work of lining up the selection, of either making the mask on that layer, making the mask to a new layer or making an extraction to a new layer. THAT would be ideal.
Yes, we have already put this in our future feature list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraellin
i also dont know if you have access to psp 7, 8, 9, or 10, so maybe an explanation of what psp does and has as far as selection abilities might help here. i'm sure you know we have 'magic wand' and 'freehand, point to point, and true freehand' and also the normal boxed selection. but, one thing psp has that maybe PS doesnt have (dont know) is we can paint a mask with the normal paint tools, including paint brush, airbrush, smudge, push and so on and all at varying opacities and densities, just like a normal image painting. but, the really nice thing is we can convert that mask instantly to a selection and then do everything you can do with a normal selection. and when done, we can, if we wish, switch this back to a mask again. it's a VERY handy feature in psp 10 (and i think 9).
Well, that is what I was thinking of when we created current version GrowCut Mask. Isn't it working that way? (As far as I understand, putting the mask into new layer instead of current should help).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraellin
so, again, thank you. i think you've got the makings of an excellent tool here. are you planning to eventually make this a commercial product?
Craig
Haven't made the decision yet. This may sound naive - but my main target is to refine the technology and let people use it (to share it). Maybe later, we'll make some commercial version, but some free variant will exist in any way, I think.
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